ATB Time?

[george44]

Outta curiousity...

I'm gonna be on an ATB for a month or so...
Sailing to finish up 85 days needed for my 3rd mates unlimited time... as a cadet at GLMA. (supposed to to 30 on the tug, then go finish up on a coastal tanker or a container vessel...)

Is it possible to sail longer(and get credit towards the 85) on an ATB?

I've been told that 30 is the max that will count towards it, but haven't found exactly where that rule come from...

The ATB/towing vessel is 272 GT, with a 4000 GT barge... Oh, the Volunteer is 595 ITC tonnage... as well...

Just figure if I'm already there...

[cappy208]

You need a specific number of days. About half of them need to be on vessels over 1600 tons. The other half can be on any other vessels as long as they are over 200 tons. Some schools have a "sweetheart" deal that lets them get away with fewer days than a hawsepiper, but everyone has to have SOME time over 1600GT.

There is confusion over a select topic in the CFR's which says: Time on a Tug/Barge combination may be combined (Tug tonnage PLUS Barge tonnage.) But this is ONLY for Pilotage endorsements. It applies to NOTHING ELSE. Often when reading the CFR's it is easy to paraphrase and mix this up.

Until we get the regulations changed to more accurately reflect the ATB's position (size wise) this is the way it is! Some of these ATBs are the equivalent of 30,000 deadweight ton ships. BUT, that don't matter under the current regs.

[SaltySailor]

Until we get the regulations changed to more accurately reflect the ATB's position (size wise) this is the way it is! Some of these ATBs are the equivalent of 30,000 deadweight ton ships. BUT, that don't matter under the current regs.

If the regs for ATB's do get changed, they should look at manning them as ships or something much closer. I haven't sailed on an ATB (on an ITB yes, but it was crewed as a ship), but I imagine having a crew of 7 or 8 would be rather shorthanded.

I would think that 12-14 crew on a large ATB would be a more realistic number.

[george44]

Since I have in excess of 180 on over 1600 tons then I could potentially go longer on an ATB of 272 GT/ 595 ITC is what it sounds like then...

[cappy208]

Since I have in excess of 180 on over 1600 tons then I could potentially go longer on an ATB of 272 GT/ 595 ITC is what it sounds like then...

I don't know what the specific number of days you need is, but your school has an office that should know such things!?

And Salty Sailor I agree, I would think 9 or 10 would suffice. Capt, Ch M, 2M, CEng, QMED, 4 PIC, 1 AB

[george44]

Got specific info from school that I can sail more than 30 (90) and have it count since I have over 180 already on unlimited tonage... the rule is 1/2 must be on unlimited...
Will be joining the Volunteer in New Orleans....

[jdcavo]

In responding to a gCaptain private message I realized how the reg on ATB/ITB tyime interacts with another, the result is that it is possible to get an unlimited license, possibly without a tonnage limit, entirely with ATB time.

As noted in other dicussions, for the purpose of crediting sea time, an ATB is considered a "dual-mode" ITB. Per 46 CFR 11.211(d), time on dual-mode ITBs can be used at the aggregate tonnage of the tug and barge, credited at 1;2 (1 day credit for 2 days service) foir up to half of the required time on vessels over 1600 GRT.

46 CFR 11.402 requires all of the time for an unlimited license to be over 200 GRT, and half over 1600 GRT. If all the time is over 200 GRT, but less than half is over 1600 GRT, a tonnage limit is applied that is either the maximum tonnage that 25% of the time was acquired on, or 150% of the maximum that 50% was acquired on.

Assume you are a 3rd Mate and have service on an ATB where the push unit/tug is 1,200 GRT, and the barge is 8,000 GRT. 6 months of your time on the ATB is counted as 3 months service at the aggregate tonnage of 9,200 GRT. The remaining 9 months needed for upgrading to 2nd Mate can be from the ATB, counted day for day at the tonnage of only the tug/push unit, inthis case 1,200 GRT. You have only 3 months on vessels over 1600 GRT, so a tonnage limit applies. 25% of the time is the 3 months credited at the aggregate tonnage, so the tonnage limit on your 2nd Mate license works out to 9,200 GRT. Tonnage limits are rounded up to the next highest increment of 1,000 GRT, in this case 10,000 GRT. There are no tonnage limits at or above 10,000 GRT, so you get an unlimited 2nd Mate without a tonnage limit. But it will take 15 months of time.

You may now be thinking that if you use 12-hour days at 1.5 to 1, you can get the 2nd Mate in LESS time than the conventional vessels. Probably not. To get the 1.5 to 1 credit, the 12-hour day must be "authorized and practiced." Most ATBs have 3 watches, so the 12-hour day is not practiced, and if the manning requirements correspond to 3 watches, it's not "authorized."

[george44]

Good to go, asked and answered!

[cappy208]

....at the aggregate tonnage of 9,200 GRT.

Jim could you please note the specific CFR this is from. To be honest this is the FIRST time (in 30 years) that I have heard that ATB time is 'combined tug and barge tonnage' to count toward licensing.... Unless it is on a 'push mode' ITB. Dual mode ATBs have always been the black sheep in this case. Has something happened recently to open the door for us " sub-mariners!?"

[george44]

§ 11.211 Creditable service and equivalents for officer endorsements.

top
(a) Sea service may be documented for the purposes of this part in various forms such as certificates of discharge, pilotage service and billing forms, and letters or other official documents from marine companies signed by appropriate officials, or individuals holding an officer endorsement or license as master. For service on vessels of under 200 gross tons, owners of vessels may attest to their own service; however, those who do not own a vessel must obtain letters or other evidence from licensed personnel or the owners of the vessels listed. The documentary evidence produced by the applicant must contain the amount and nature (e.g. chief mate. assistant engineer, etc.) of the applicant's experience, the vessel name, gross tonnage, shaft horsepower and official numbers, the routes upon which the experience was acquired, and approximate dates of service.
(b) Port engineer, shipyard superintendent experience, instructor service, or similar related service may be creditable for a maximum of six months of service for raise of grade of an engineer or deck officer endorsement, as appropriate, using the following:
(1) Port engineer or shipyard superintendent experience is creditable on a three-for-one basis for a raise of grade. (Twelve months of experience equals four months of creditable service.)
(2) Service as a bona fide instructor at a school of navigation or marine engineering is creditable on a two-for-one basis for a raise of grade. (Twelve months of experience equals six months of creditable service).
(c) Service on mobile offshore drilling units is creditable for raise of grade of officer endorsement. Evidence of one year's service as mate or equivalent while holding a license as third mate, or as engineering officer of the watch or equivalent while holding an officer endorsement or license as third assistant engineer, is acceptable for a raise of grade to second mate or second assistant engineer, respectively; however, any subsequent raises of grade of unlimited, nonrestricted officer licenses or endorsements must include a minimum of six months of service on conventional vessels.
(d) Service on a Dual Mode Integrated Tug Barge (ITB) unit is creditable for original or raise of grade of any deck officer endorsement. Service on a Dual Mode ITB with an aggregate tonnage of over 1600 gross tons is creditable on a two-for-one basis (two days experience equals one day of creditable service) for up to 50 percent of the total service on vessels over 1600 gross tons required for an unlimited officer endorsement. The remaining required service on vessels of over 1600 gross tons must be obtained on conventional vessels or Push Mode ITBs.
(e) Other experience in a marine related area, other than at sea, or sea service performed on unique vessels, will be evaluated by the OCMI and forwarded to the Commandant for a determination of equivalence to traditional service.
[CGD 81–059, 52 FR 38623, Oct. 16, 1987, as amended at 54 FR 135, Jan. 4, 1989; USCG–2006–24371, 74 FR 11238, Mar. 16, 2009]

[jdcavo]

Jim could you please note the specific CFR this is from. To be honest this is the FIRST time (in 30 years) that I have heard that ATB time is 'combined tug and barge tonnage' to count toward licensing.... Unless it is on a 'push mode' ITB. Dual mode ATBs have always been the black sheep in this case. Has something happened recently to open the door for us " sub-mariners!?"

It's not specifically stated. It's an interpretation of how 46 CFR 11.211(d) would be applied to an ATB. It is based on the definition/description of ATB in NVIC 02-81. The alternative is a strict application of the reg, and tthe ATB time would be credited based only on the tonnage of the tug unit.

[seadawg]

"It's not specifically stated. It's an interpretation of how 46 CFR 11.211(d) would be applied to an ATB."

IMHO..imagine that there are mariners on here that now wonder how to procure this "interpretation" in writing from the NMC??

[cappy208]

I fought and got so mad i kicked over a trash can at Boston REC, because the evaluator was stone walling me. Now I see that it is possible to get this route approved. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

I'm pissed off. I wanted to get a third and they said NO WAY. Dammit, Four years ago I could have strangled someone in a blue suit! Oops, sorry, just a figure of speech. (Don't take it literally!)

[seadawg]

I fought and got so mad i kicked over a trash can at Boston REC, because the evaluator was stone walling me. Now I see that it is possible to get this route approved. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

I'm pissed off. I wanted to get a third and they said NO WAY. Dammit, Four years ago I could have strangled someone in a blue suit! Oops, sorry, just a figure of speech. (Don't take it literally!)

IMHO..feel you pain..have had a similar experience!!

[kfj]

Bumping an old thread.....

Im an AB that doesnt have RFPNW due to the size of the tugs ive been on. Based on "(d) Service on a Dual Mode Integrated Tug Barge (ITB) unit is creditable for original or raise of grade of any deck officer endorsement. Service on a Dual Mode ITB with an aggregate tonnage of over 1600 gross tons is creditable on a two-for-one basis (two days experience equals one day of creditable service) for up to 50 percent of the total service on vessels over 1600 gross tons required for an unlimited officer endorsement. The remaining required service on vessels of over 1600 gross tons must be obtained on conventional vessels or Push Mode ITBs." does that mean i can do the assessments on a dual mode ATB thats 199grt and the barge is over 5000grt and have it count?

[Cal]

does that mean i can do the assessments on a dual mode ATB thats 199grt and the barge is over 5000grt and have it count?

One could definitely make that argument as they are expanding 46 CFR 11.211(d), as quoted above, to include ATB according to the SNPRM.