Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

**JGB** · December 23rd, 2012, 06:25 PM

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I could not find anything exactly on point after searching the forums: is it possible to earn time as a Mate (even supernumerary Mate) on a documented towing vessel w/out holding a TOAR? (Do have a Commercial Assistance Tow endorsement.)

If no, what if the documented towing vessel rarely engages in actual towing, but is mostly used for trips around the harbor? Many thanks & take care, JGB

**Scallywag** · December 23rd, 2012, 07:47 PM

As this tug is most likely not engaged in assistance towing, the assistance towing endorsement and $1.07 will get you an ANY size coffee at McDonalds! Is it a harbor assist tug? My take would be you would need the TOAR on a tug to act in the capacity of a licensed officer, but you most likely need to be apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel which would require you to take an exam.

**JGB** · December 23rd, 2012, 07:58 PM

Thanks; the tug rarely does any actual towing, as mentioned. I'm already 200GRT Master, but need the time as a licensed officer on the tug to upgrade. So is it possible to do so on a documented towing vessel, w/out a TOAR, at least when the tug is not engaged in towing?

Originally Posted by Scallywag

As this tug is most likely not engaged in assistance towing, the assistance towing endorsement and $1.07 will get you an ANY size coffee at McDonalds! Is it a harbor assist tug? My take would be you would need the TOAR on a tug to act in the capacity of a licensed officer, but you most likely need to be apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel which would require you to take an exam.

**Scallywag** · December 23rd, 2012, 08:27 PM

Do you have your apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel? See the NMC check list for Apprentice Mate of Towing vessel; Mate of Towing Vessel; Master of Towing Vessel. You will also need to test for towing vessel before you can mate or master on a towing vessel.

APPRENTICE MATE (STEERSMAN) OF TOWING VESSELS UPON OCEAN, NEAR COASTAL, GREAT LAKES-INLAND & WESTERN RIVERS
Sea Service Requirements
(does not have to be service on deck)
Recency – 90 days qualifying service in the past 3 years on vessels
Apprentice Mate (Steersman):
540 days of service, OF WHICH: 360 days on towing vessels, AND 90 days must be on the particular route requested, AND Pass exams for particular routes.
Apprentice Mate (Steersman) (Limited): Limited means to T/V less than 200GRT to a local area within the Great Lakes, inland waters, or Western Rivers as designated by the OCMI. OCMI designation must be documented.
(See checklist for Limited AMS)
Copy of OCMI designation letter for local area approved with route verbiage
Holds endorsement as Apprentice Mate (Steersman) – Must pass an exam for a route not included in the current endorsement;
No additional service required.
Note: Upon completion of 90 days experience on that route, may have the restriction removed with new application and fees.
Or,Course Completion Certificate in lieu of Coast Guard examination.

MATE OF TOWING VESSELS UPON OCEAN, NEAR COASTAL, GREAT LAKES-INLAND & WESTERN RIVERS
Recency – 90 days qualifying service in the past 3 years on vessels
If holder of Apprentice Mate (Steersman):
900 days of service, OF WHICH: 360 days on towing vessels as Apprentice Mate (Steersman), AND 90 days must be on a particular route, AND TOAR or approved course.(No further exams required)
If holder of Master Towing Vessels (Limited):
30 days of training & observation on towing vessels on a particular route (90 days for Western Rivers), WITH
Appropriate TOAR or approved course, AND Pass a Limited exam.
If holder of Mate (Pilot) Towing Vessels (Limited):
900 days of service, OF WHICH: 360 days on towing vessels as Apprentice Mate (Steersman), AND 90 days must be on a particular route(if applicable), WITH Appropriate TOAR or approved course (if applicable), AND Pass a Limited exam (if applicable). (Removal of local restriction is per local OCMI approval which placed the restriction or meet full requirements of endorsement)

**JGB** · December 23rd, 2012, 08:33 PM

Ya; saw the checklist. Since I'm already Master 200RT, my understanding of checklist is I'd need 30days + TOAR + Towing exam to get Mate of Towing.

But still don't understand if it's possible to serve as mate on a documented towing vessel if it's NOT engaged in towing, harbor assist, etc. (It mainly parades around the harbor with volunteers aboard.)

Originally Posted by Scallywag

Do you have your apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel? See the NMC check list for Apprentice Mate of Towing vessel; Mate of Towing Vessel; Mater of Towing Vessel. You will also need to test for towing vessel before you can mate or master on a towing vessel.

**Azimuth** · December 23rd, 2012, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by JGB

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I could not find anything exactly on point after searching the forums: is it possible to earn time as a Mate (even supernumerary Mate) on a documented towing vessel w/out holding a TOAR? (Do have a Commercial Assistance Tow endorsement.)

If no, what if the documented towing vessel rarely engages in actual towing, but is mostly used for trips around the harbor? Many thanks & take care, JGB

You would not be acting in the capacity of Mate or Master on a towing vessel. You would be an "observer" since you cannot legally fill the Mate or Master position without the TOAR. Your seatime letter would need to be written as "training mate". That would get you the time you need for the TOAR.

**JGB** · December 23rd, 2012, 08:43 PM

Excellent, Smithers!

Now we're getting somewhere.

And "training mate" should count for "master, mate, or equivalent supervisory position" for a license upgrade, correct?

Would have no problem obtaining TOAR at some point, but was concerned that time spent on this vessel before becoming Mate of Towing would be "wasted" for upgrading my [non-towing] deck license.

Originally Posted by Azimuth

You would not be acting in the capacity of Mate or Master on a towing vessel. You would be an "observer" since you cannot legally fill the Mate or Master position without the TOAR. Your seatime letter would need to be written as "training mate". That would get you the time you need for the TOAR.

**Capt. Phoenix** · December 23rd, 2012, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by JGB

And "training mate" should count for "master, mate, or equivalent supervisory position" for a license upgrade, correct?

No, but you might get lucky.

**Capt. Phoenix** · December 23rd, 2012, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by JGB

But still don't understand if it's possible to serve as mate on a documented towing vessel if it's NOT engaged in towing, harbor assist, etc.

It is not possible for you to serve in that capacity if the parade tug is actually (still) a USCG documented towing vessel.

**troy** · December 24th, 2012, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by JGB

Thanks; the tug rarely does any actual towing, as mentioned. I'm already 200GRT Master, but need the time as a licensed officer on the tug to upgrade. So is it possible to do so on a documented towing vessel, w/out a TOAR, at least when the tug is not engaged in towing?

So what you are trying to do is get mate time over 50/100 tons to upgrade to 500/1600 ton. You are serving on a documented tug trying to accrue this time, and at the same time you need a towing license to serve as mate. So what you are looking at is getting a towing license (TOAR) to serve as mate and get the time you need to upgrade to 500/1600. Is this correct?

If this is the case you are in a catch 22. For a TOAR you need at least a 500 ton license unless you go the apprentice mate program. (a year or more of your time). For a 500 ton or better you need the time as mate over 50/100 tons. As Azimuth said trainee mate time will count for a TOAR but you need a 500 ton license to get a TOAR. Trainee mate time will not count as "master, mate, or equivalent". I went through a similar situation (search trainee mate sea time). However you could get lucky with your evaluator, as I have seen trainee mate time work for one coworker. Then you run in to issues such as if your captain is a Designated Examiner and the fact that you do no towing so doing the evolutions on your TOAR would be impossible.

What is your ultimate goal? To be on a towing vessel, or to get the upgraded license?

Good luck!

**JGB** · December 24th, 2012, 08:28 AM

Thanks; I think you can still get a TOAR w/200 GRT Master; you need to sit for the apprentice mate exam & have 30 days, tho.

My goal is to uprade; getting a TOAR would be nice, but very secondary. And this whole process has been an enormous catch 22; need to find something smaller than 200 GRT but bigger than 50 GRT (pref 150 GRT) on which I can crew as an officer & there aren't many things besides tugs like that around here.

Originally Posted by troy

So what you are trying to do is get mate time over 50/100 tons to upgrade to 500/1600 ton. You are serving on a documented tug trying to accrue this time, and at the same time you need a towing license to serve as mate. So what you are looking at is getting a towing license (TOAR) to serve as mate and get the time you need to upgrade to 500/1600. Is this correct?

If this is the case you are in a catch 22. For a TOAR you need at least a 500 ton license unless you go the apprentice mate program. (a year or more of your time). For a 500 ton or better you need the time as mate over 50/100 tons. As Azimuth said trainee mate time will count for a TOAR but you need a 500 ton license to get a TOAR. Trainee mate time will not count as "master, mate, or equivalent". I went through a similar situation (search trainee mate sea time). However you could get lucky with your evaluator, as I have seen trainee mate time work for one coworker. Then you run in to issues such as if your captain is a Designated Examiner and the fact that you do no towing so doing the evolutions on your TOAR would be impossible.

What is your ultimate goal? To be on a towing vessel, or to get the upgraded license?

Good luck!

**jdcavo** · December 24th, 2012, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by JGB

Thanks; the tug rarely does any actual towing, as mentioned. I'm already 200GRT Master, but need the time as a licensed officer on the tug to upgrade. So is it possible to do so on a documented towing vessel, w/out a TOAR, at least when the tug is not engaged in towing?

If it's a towing vessel, it doesn't matter whether or not it's actually towing, you can't serve as mate without either a towing vessel license (not assistance towing) or a 500 ton or greater license and a properly completed TOAR.

**jdcavo** · December 24th, 2012, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Capt. Phoenix

No, but you might get lucky.

Or you might not, and the owner/operator will be investigated for improper manning. When NMC has reason to suspect someone acquired service wiothjout the proper license, they refer it to the local mariner safety office to ionvestigate a possible manning violation.

**CurryAK** · December 24th, 2012, 11:58 AM

Also. I am quite familiar with the route you intended to get your mate of towing with. Your time as a master 200 must actually be as a master for 1080 days to qualify for that upgrade. Plus an apprentice mate exam, and completed toar.

**JGB** · December 24th, 2012, 12:07 PM

Ya; have that besides 30 days, TOAR & AM exam.

Originally Posted by CurryAK

Also. I am quite familiar with the route you intended to get your mate of towing with. Your time as a master 200 must actually be as a master for 1080 days to qualify for that upgrade. Plus an apprentice mate exam, and completed toar.

**Shadow** · December 24th, 2012, 12:59 PM

If you have a 200 ton then you must have time on vessels over 100 tons. Did you have your AB? You might be able to sit for 1600 mate now and then get your 30 days and toar and then start earning time for your masters. If a towing license is not the goal there are lots of vessels over 50 tons and under 100 tons out there. There is the crew boats in the gulf, every city is full of dinner boats and small passenger ferries, SE Alaska is full of tour boats and mini cruise ships.

If you do not have much experience running vessels over 50 tons, why are you in such a big hurry to get a 500 ton masters anyway? A mates license might be a better suited goal. You can have your time on the harbor tug written as AB which will be useful ( and legal ) for a mates license. If you don't have your AB, you might as well get it. You will need it for the upgrade anyway.

**JGB** · December 24th, 2012, 01:14 PM

In order, yes >100GRT, but not nearly enough to get Oceans 200GRT Master. It turns out it will take less large vessel time to get to 500GRT Master Oceans or even 1600GRT Mate Oceans, so just gonna go that route. Of course will get Mate ticket & work as Mate before upgrading as Master; have AB Spec, RFPNW, OICNW already. Prob just do TOAR after 500GRT Mate, so don't have to sit for AM exam.

And dinner boats are looking most likely; have to wake up too early for ferries

Originally Posted by Shadow

If you have a 200 ton then you must have time on vessels over 100 tons. Did you have your AB? You might be able to sit for 1600 mate now and then get your 30 days and toar and then start earning time for your masters. If a towing license is not the goal there are lots of vessels over 50 tons and under 100 tons out there. There is the crew boats in the gulf, every city is full of dinner boats and small passenger ferries, SE Alaska is full of tour boats and mini cruise ships.

If you do not have much experience running vessels over 50 tons, why are you in such a big hurry to get a 500 ton masters anyway? A mates license might be a better suited goal. You can have your time on the harbor tug written as AB which will be useful ( and legal ) for a mates license. If you don't have your AB, you might as well get it. You will need it for the upgrade anyway.