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Thread: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

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    JGB
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    Default Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Apologies if this has been asked before, but I could not find anything exactly on point after searching the forums: is it possible to earn time as a Mate (even supernumerary Mate) on a documented towing vessel w/out holding a TOAR? (Do have a Commercial Assistance Tow endorsement.)

    If no, what if the documented towing vessel rarely engages in actual towing, but is mostly used for trips around the harbor? Many thanks & take care, JGB
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    As this tug is most likely not engaged in assistance towing, the assistance towing endorsement and $1.07 will get you an ANY size coffee at McDonalds! Is it a harbor assist tug? My take would be you would need the TOAR on a tug to act in the capacity of a licensed officer, but you most likely need to be apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel which would require you to take an exam.
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    JGB
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Thanks; the tug rarely does any actual towing, as mentioned. I'm already 200GRT Master, but need the time as a licensed officer on the tug to upgrade. So is it possible to do so on a documented towing vessel, w/out a TOAR, at least when the tug is not engaged in towing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scallywag View Post
    As this tug is most likely not engaged in assistance towing, the assistance towing endorsement and $1.07 will get you an ANY size coffee at McDonalds! Is it a harbor assist tug? My take would be you would need the TOAR on a tug to act in the capacity of a licensed officer, but you most likely need to be apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel which would require you to take an exam.
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Do you have your apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel? See the NMC check list for Apprentice Mate of Towing vessel; Mate of Towing Vessel; Master of Towing Vessel. You will also need to test for towing vessel before you can mate or master on a towing vessel.

    APPRENTICE MATE (STEERSMAN) OF TOWING VESSELS UPON OCEAN, NEAR COASTAL, GREAT LAKES-INLAND & WESTERN RIVERS
    Sea Service Requirements
    (does not have to be service on deck)
    Recency 90 days qualifying service in the past 3 years on vessels
    Apprentice Mate (Steersman):
    540 days of service, OF WHICH: 360 days on towing vessels, AND 90 days must be on the particular route requested, AND Pass exams for particular routes.
    Apprentice Mate (Steersman) (Limited): Limited means to T/V less than 200GRT to a local area within the Great Lakes, inland waters, or Western Rivers as designated by the OCMI. OCMI designation must be documented.
    (See checklist for Limited AMS)
    Copy of OCMI designation letter for local area approved with route verbiage
    Holds endorsement as Apprentice Mate (Steersman) Must pass an exam for a route not included in the current endorsement;
    No additional service required.
    Note: Upon completion of 90 days experience on that route, may have the restriction removed with new application and fees.
    Or,Course Completion Certificate in lieu of Coast Guard examination.

    MATE OF TOWING VESSELS UPON OCEAN, NEAR COASTAL, GREAT LAKES-INLAND & WESTERN RIVERS
    Recency 90 days qualifying service in the past 3 years on vessels
    If holder of Apprentice Mate (Steersman):
    900 days of service, OF WHICH: 360 days on towing vessels as Apprentice Mate (Steersman), AND 90 days must be on a particular route, AND TOAR or approved course.(No further exams required)
    If holder of Master Towing Vessels (Limited):
    30 days of training & observation on towing vessels on a particular route (90 days for Western Rivers), WITH
    Appropriate TOAR or approved course, AND Pass a Limited exam.
    If holder of Mate (Pilot) Towing Vessels (Limited):
    900 days of service, OF WHICH: 360 days on towing vessels as Apprentice Mate (Steersman), AND 90 days must be on a particular route(if applicable), WITH Appropriate TOAR or approved course (if applicable), AND Pass a Limited exam (if applicable). (Removal of local restriction is per local OCMI approval which placed the restriction or meet full requirements of endorsement)


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    JGB
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Ya; saw the checklist. Since I'm already Master 200RT, my understanding of checklist is I'd need 30days + TOAR + Towing exam to get Mate of Towing.

    But still don't understand if it's possible to serve as mate on a documented towing vessel if it's NOT engaged in towing, harbor assist, etc. (It mainly parades around the harbor with volunteers aboard.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scallywag View Post
    Do you have your apprentice mate (steersman) of a towing vessel? See the NMC check list for Apprentice Mate of Towing vessel; Mate of Towing Vessel; Mater of Towing Vessel. You will also need to test for towing vessel before you can mate or master on a towing vessel.
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGB View Post
    Apologies if this has been asked before, but I could not find anything exactly on point after searching the forums: is it possible to earn time as a Mate (even supernumerary Mate) on a documented towing vessel w/out holding a TOAR? (Do have a Commercial Assistance Tow endorsement.)

    If no, what if the documented towing vessel rarely engages in actual towing, but is mostly used for trips around the harbor? Many thanks & take care, JGB
    You would not be acting in the capacity of Mate or Master on a towing vessel. You would be an "observer" since you cannot legally fill the Mate or Master position without the TOAR. Your seatime letter would need to be written as "training mate". That would get you the time you need for the TOAR.
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Excellent, Smithers! Now we're getting somewhere.

    And "training mate" should count for "master, mate, or equivalent supervisory position" for a license upgrade, correct?

    Would have no problem obtaining TOAR at some point, but was concerned that time spent on this vessel before becoming Mate of Towing would be "wasted" for upgrading my [non-towing] deck license.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azimuth View Post
    You would not be acting in the capacity of Mate or Master on a towing vessel. You would be an "observer" since you cannot legally fill the Mate or Master position without the TOAR. Your seatime letter would need to be written as "training mate". That would get you the time you need for the TOAR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGB View Post
    And "training mate" should count for "master, mate, or equivalent supervisory position" for a license upgrade, correct?

    No, but you might get lucky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGB View Post
    But still don't understand if it's possible to serve as mate on a documented towing vessel if it's NOT engaged in towing, harbor assist, etc.

    It is not possible for you to serve in that capacity if the parade tug is actually (still) a USCG documented towing vessel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGB
    Thanks; the tug rarely does any actual towing, as mentioned. I'm already 200GRT Master, but need the time as a licensed officer on the tug to upgrade. So is it possible to do so on a documented towing vessel, w/out a TOAR, at least when the tug is not engaged in towing?
    So what you are trying to do is get mate time over 50/100 tons to upgrade to 500/1600 ton. You are serving on a documented tug trying to accrue this time, and at the same time you need a towing license to serve as mate. So what you are looking at is getting a towing license (TOAR) to serve as mate and get the time you need to upgrade to 500/1600. Is this correct?

    If this is the case you are in a catch 22. For a TOAR you need at least a 500 ton license unless you go the apprentice mate program. (a year or more of your time). For a 500 ton or better you need the time as mate over 50/100 tons. As Azimuth said trainee mate time will count for a TOAR but you need a 500 ton license to get a TOAR. Trainee mate time will not count as "master, mate, or equivalent". I went through a similar situation (search trainee mate sea time). However you could get lucky with your evaluator, as I have seen trainee mate time work for one coworker. Then you run in to issues such as if your captain is a Designated Examiner and the fact that you do no towing so doing the evolutions on your TOAR would be impossible.

    What is your ultimate goal? To be on a towing vessel, or to get the upgraded license?

    Good luck!
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    JGB
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Thanks; I think you can still get a TOAR w/200 GRT Master; you need to sit for the apprentice mate exam & have 30 days, tho.

    My goal is to uprade; getting a TOAR would be nice, but very secondary. And this whole process has been an enormous catch 22; need to find something smaller than 200 GRT but bigger than 50 GRT (pref 150 GRT) on which I can crew as an officer & there aren't many things besides tugs like that around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by troy View Post
    So what you are trying to do is get mate time over 50/100 tons to upgrade to 500/1600 ton. You are serving on a documented tug trying to accrue this time, and at the same time you need a towing license to serve as mate. So what you are looking at is getting a towing license (TOAR) to serve as mate and get the time you need to upgrade to 500/1600. Is this correct?

    If this is the case you are in a catch 22. For a TOAR you need at least a 500 ton license unless you go the apprentice mate program. (a year or more of your time). For a 500 ton or better you need the time as mate over 50/100 tons. As Azimuth said trainee mate time will count for a TOAR but you need a 500 ton license to get a TOAR. Trainee mate time will not count as "master, mate, or equivalent". I went through a similar situation (search trainee mate sea time). However you could get lucky with your evaluator, as I have seen trainee mate time work for one coworker. Then you run in to issues such as if your captain is a Designated Examiner and the fact that you do no towing so doing the evolutions on your TOAR would be impossible.

    What is your ultimate goal? To be on a towing vessel, or to get the upgraded license?

    Good luck!
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    Default Re: Earning time as Mate on Towing Vessel w/out TOAR?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGB View Post
    Thanks; the tug rarely does any actual towing, as mentioned. I'm already 200GRT Master, but need the time as a licensed officer on the tug to upgrade. So is it possible to do so on a documented towing vessel, w/out a TOAR, at least when the tug is not engaged in towing?
    If it's a towing vessel, it doesn't matter whether or not it's actually towing, you can't serve as mate without either a towing vessel license (not assistance towing) or a 500 ton or greater license and a properly completed TOAR.
    James D. Cavo
    U.S. Coast Guard
    Mariner Credentialing Program
    Policy Division (CG-5434)
    James.D.Cavo@uscg.mil
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