Should a tanker drifting be considered NUC?

[follow40]

This is something that I feel should be updated under international regulation.

I've been on a 300m LNG carrier that's needed to wait for a few days to unload of the coast of Korea whilst the port is readying for us to offload the cargo.

Whilst drifting, the captain took the technically wrong decision to make us NUC for the several days were drifting off the coast, as being under normal navigational status would mean that we would have to give way to literally thousands of fishing boats. I do not believe his decision was right,

But seeing as these tanker take about upto an hour for the engineers to get the engines going for maneuver, do people not think that there should be some kind of legal protection for them?


Please see MGN 152 - Use of Not Under Command Signals.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn152.pdf

[cappy208]

This has already been figured out.

I don't have the rules of the road handy; but, iirc the phrase regarding NUC is: "through some exceptional circumstance a vessel is unable to manuver she becomes NUC."

Your master can NOT simply decide that he is NUC. It is a condition that is a result of a degradation of ability of the vessel to answer commands.

[PMC]

Many large vessels show NUC lights when drifting. Its not right according to the rules - but when was the last time you sounded a short blast when you made a turn to starboard.

[follow40]

I know this has already been figured out....MGN 152 blah... blah... blah...

But I only question if the established rules should be changed.

I don't even work on tankers anymore, but I only raise the question out of interest.

[PMC]

It would be nice it AIS had an "drifting" status. It would also be nice if every ship had a person on the bridge who can speak english.

[c.captain]

Of course all of this is also true of vessels on DP but not conducting any work at the moment that would qualify them as RIATM. Most just put up the lights and just sit there when in all reality that they should take the lights down and be prepared to maneuver to avoid collision.

Then how does being underway making 0.015kts effect the rules for maneuvering itself? I guess it is all based on the heading of your vessel in relation to other vessels in the area which might ultimately involve a risk of collision? If you just alter your heading to make the other vessel an overtaking one, then he is to keep out of the way ie. turn your ass to everybody.

In the end, no power driven vessel can just shut down its plant and drift. The engines must be available at all times regardless if the vessel is making 15kts or 0.015kts.

[rigdvr]

Many large vessels show NUC lights when drifting. Its not right according to the rules - but when was the last time you sounded a short blast when you made a turn to starboard.

I think the rules on that are may sound, not shall sound in Intl waters. Big difference in those two phrasings.

Also c.captain, isn't there something about not being able to make a course change to turn a crossing situation into an overtaking? Or a meeting into a crossing. I'd have to get the book out but for some reason I recall that.

I didn't think you could take engines offline, not having them available for maneuvering. NUC or not, think that's the last thing I would want on an LNG ship...

[follow40]

Of course all of this is also true of vessels on DP but not conducting any work at the moment that would qualify them as RIATM. Most just put up the lights and just sit there when in all reality that they should take the lights down and be prepared to maneuver to avoid collision.

Then how does being underway making 0.015kts effect the rules for maneuvering itself? I guess it is all based on the heading of your vessel in relation to other vessels in the area which might ultimately involve a risk of collision? If you just alter your heading to make the other vessel an overtaking one, then he is to keep out of the way ie. turn your ass to everybody.

In the end, no power driven vessel can just shut down its plant and drift. The engines must be available at all times regardless if the vessel is making 15kts or 0.015kts.

Its not the same as being in DP. Most ships in DP and not doing any operations can simply just drop out of it if needed. But the LNG carrier I was on we had at give at least 30mins notice to the engine room if we wanted to make any changes to speed... So if another ship was heading towards us then lost steering and couldnt alter heading we would have been in a spot of bother...

[BMCSRetired]

Your Captain made a decision and if something bad happens, he will have to live with it good or bad, it is his call.

On the Rules issue... I like the rules because they give us a simple framework to work within and do not cover EVERY situation specifically. That is why there is a specific time frame of apprenticeship before you become a Master and even then you are minimally qualified and experienced for that position. Time and experience are the only way to become a good Master. That is why we get paid the big bucks.

So... as long as nobody gets hurt and nothing happens, your Captain is OK. If something happens, he will be held inescapably and ultimately responsible. Our jobs allow us a lot of leeway in doing things unlike on the beach which, as a control freak, is one of the reasons I work out here.

[Kennebec Captain]

The rules definitely need to be reviewed. I've had to drift for days at a time and it's a pain.

It is not technically feasible with low speed diesel and unmanned engine room to keep the engine on standby for that long and the price of fuel is too high to be able to do donuts like we used to.

I try to pick a spot out of traffic and far enough away that I wouldn't drift into it. We turn on all the deck lights and I instruct the mates to watch for traffic and call on the VHF etc if someone comes too close. Problem is you can cover a lot of ground at night, in a 20 kt wind we drift at about 2 kts plus any current.


The root cause of problems is often poor planning at the terminal. Rather then give the ship a good estimated pilot time they want all the ships to stay ready on one hour standby. The terminal can easily shift cost, risk and inconvenience onto the ship

K.C.

[BMCSRetired]

The root cause of problems is often poor planning at the terminal. Rather then give the ship a good estimated pilot time they want all the ships to stay ready on one hour standby. The terminal can easily shift cost, risk and inconvenience onto the ship

K.C.

Gee KC, poor planning at the terminal and we have to eat it. I am shocked this occurs, shocked I say.

I run into the same problem (though not on the size you are dealing with) here in Trinidad. What they used to do to me was call me in before the other boat left. I trusted these morons, heave anchor, run through a narrow channel and then sit (not on DP) in a crowded little harbor. After doing this for about 6 months, I told the client I would not move until the master on the vessel at the dock called me and stated he was starting his engines and moving. Only the do I start the mains and heave anchor.

The client were not happy because they were losing 30 minutes of time at the dock but I told them it was a "Safety Issue" according to their manual which also states it is the Master's call and they backed down. My bosses are happy because I am using the client's operations manual to justify my actions and I am happy by passive aggressively sticking their procedures in their a**es and it is ALL about me being happy.

Keep her safe K.C.!

[Kennebec Captain]

The client were not happy because they were losing 30 minutes of time at the dock but I told them it was a "Safety Issue" according to their manual which also states it is the Master's call and they backed down. My bosses are happy because I am using the client's operations manual to justify my actions and I am happy by passive aggressively sticking their procedures in their a**es and it is ALL about me being happy.

Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, nobody know but BMCSRetired.

Yes, some ports this is a problem. On the East Coast of South/Central America starting in Mexico not so good, Columbia and Venezuela are bad, the situation gets better as you go south, Brazil is not too bad plus better weather and good anchorages. When you get to Argentina it's bad again, corrupt port officials . Europe, Japan, United States are good, Middle East is bad, not to mention the pirates, the terrorist and the Iranians wanting to shut down the Straits.

K.C.

Two things port control says you should take with a grain of salt - "the channel is clear" and "the pilot will be waiting at the breakwater"

[Capt. Phoenix]

I think the rules on that are may sound, not shall sound in Intl waters. Big difference in those two phrasings.

It says "shall". Also, there is an exception in inland rules allowing you to make arrangements by radio instead of blowing whistle signals for every vessel you pass within 1/2 mile of.

Also c.captain, isn't there something about not being able to make a course change to turn a crossing situation into an overtaking? Or a meeting into a crossing. I'd have to get the book out but for some reason I recall that.

If you are the overtaking vessel any change in relationship between you and the other vessel such that it might appear that you are now crossing with the right of way does not eliminate your responsibility to stay out of the way if the overtaken vessel.

[c.captain]

remember that we can do anything we want to do up until the point where "risk of collision exists" then the rules kick in so when a guy is just coming over the horizon turn your ass to him and bingo, he's the burdened vessel

[Capt. Phoenix]

remember that we can do anything we want to do up until the point where "risk of collision exists" then the rules kick in so when a guy is just coming over the horizon turn your ass to him and bingo, he's the burdened vessel

Good point. Then again, if a tanker is drifting with its engine off it can't just turn.

[follow40]

Good point. Then again, if a tanker is drifting with its engine off it can't just turn.

Exactly, takes a good few minutes to turn even with the engines lol. In the Yellow Sea off the coast off the Korea there are far far far to may other vessels to give way for... never seen so many targets swarming on a radar screen before... Going NUC is probably the best thing to do in the situation we were in... To many targets to alter for... and these tankers can be waiting offshore the port of discharge for weeks at a time as sometimes they wait for the price of LNG to increase before discharging to make a bit more profit.

[Kennebec Captain]

I think a drifting ship would be covered under rule 2 special circumstances. I think it is understood when you come across a ship with all its deck lights on and is DIW it is drifting and you should stay clear. If someone doesn't know enough to stay clear then you would be justified in flipping on the NUC lights as you can't get out of the way without an engine.

Keep the NUC lights off while drifting as you are not broke down but switch them on if there is danger of collision because you are in fact not able to maneuver in time to stay clear. It's not 100% right but the rules need to be updated. Until then ad lib.

K.C.

As far as MGN 152 - it's their job to send out memos, its our job to sail ships.

[c.captain]

Then again, if a tanker is drifting with its engine off it can't just turn.

I don't get this point about engines being off. Any slow speed diesel can sit stopped but as long as lube & SW cooling pumps, scavenging blowers, etc are all running and there is start air in the receivers, the main can be brought up ahead or astern with no time at all. Are we talking about securing the plant as in FWE or just the plant on standby as in SBE? Being FWE & drifting is not only contrary to intent of the COLREGS but flies in the face of good seamanship. The engines should be available at anytime to maneuvering...PERIOD!

If it's geared medium speed diesels you just clutch out and idle or shutdown but same as with slowspeed, just restart the engines on call from the bridge if the bridge can't start directly. Electric drive is an even bigger no brainer...the generators are running anyway regardless. It is only a matter of how many kW are available to the officer on the bridge.

Why is this not the case when drifting and waiting for orders?

[Kennebec Captain]

I don't get this point about engines being off. Any slow speed diesel can sit stopped but as long as lube & SW cooling pumps, scavenging blowers, etc are all running and there is start air in the receivers, the main can be brought up ahead or astern with no time at all. Are we talking about securing the plant as in FWE or just the plant on standby as in SBE? Being FWE & drifting is not only contrary to intent of the COLREGS but flies in the face of good seamanship. The engines should be available at anytime to maneuvering...PERIOD!

We are talking about drifting with FWE and an unmanned engine room at night. It's a common practice. When you come across a big tanker not making way with all the deck lights on you go around it.

When drifting for shorter periods of time close to the pilot station the practice is to leave the engine on SBE and to "roll over" the engine every half an hour by running at dead slow for a short time. The engine department prefers FWE over SBE, For the master it is the opposite.

K.C.

EDIT: How is it more unsafe then anchoring? Your ability to get out of the way is very limited at anchor and you are FWE. When you drift you can drift away from traffic. Plus you face the risk of dragging anchor. I've dragged close to the beach at FWE, that's no fun. I"d like to keep the engines on SBE on the hook too, that's not going to happen.

[PMC]

The point of the original poster is that many large ships drift with their deck lights on and engines finished. That is a fact. And they show themselves as NUC.