piney point apprentice program

[mb05j]

Hi,

I'm currently looking into the piney point apprentice program. Has anyone here been through the program, and could tell me what its like, give any advice?

thanks,
mitchell

[MariaW]

A lot of people here don't like the union that runs the program. I'm not sure why. They don't like the union but don't have much to say about the program. Others say it's fine. Maybe someone will come along and explain.

[Skoidat69]

It's a good way to break into the industry.. It's costs about $1500 and you will spend 90days at school, 90days at sea, 60 days at school and 120 days at sea. You get paid $25/week while at school and about $900/month while at sea for the 90 days THEN you get paid full union wages for the 120 days at sea. Then you will return for more schooling and then upgrade to AB, FOWT (Oiler) OR Cook. If you don't like going to sea, you aren't out alot of money BUT if you do then you are move into other sectors of the industry be it union or non-union

[mb05j]

I already have an ab limited, so would i have to go back to school?

[MariaW]

For what? My impression is that the apprentice school is for people who aren't already mariners. Piney Point has other classes for mariners to upgrade their existing skills.

[mb05j]

For what? My impression is that the apprentice school is for people who aren't already mariners. Piney Point has other classes for mariners to upgrade their existing skills.

The union hall people said I should go to the school despite already having an AB, so that I get the b card and a gauranteed 4 month contract. I realize there will be a whole bunch of redundant material, but I'm interested in learning some engine stuff for the heck of it.

What scares me is that it seems militaristic . I'm curious about others experiences in the program.

[Capt. Phoenix]

The union hall people said I should go to the school despite already having an AB, so that I get the b card and a gauranteed 4 month contract. I realize there will be a whole bunch of redundant material, but I'm interested in learning some engine stuff for the heck of it.

What scares me is that it seems militaristic . I'm curious about others experiences in the program.

In this economy the B card might be a big help. Since you alway have an AB Limited then do the oiler program and you can ship as either rating. (Assuming you have RFPNW and like engine room work after you get your oiler.)

[MariaW]

In this economy the B card might be a big help. Since you alway have an AB Limited then do the oiler program and you can ship as either rating. (Assuming you have RFPNW and like engine room work after you get your oiler.)

That's a great idea.

mb05j: As for the militaristic parts, my personal feeling is it's just stuff they make you go through as an apprentice to separate the wheat from the chaff. I think they want to make sure people who have never been on a ship before understand the concept of watches, following directions, etc., which makes sense to me. A lot of people probably come there with no clue. Of course, since you've been working on ships before, it will probably feel silly to you.

How did you get your AB Limited and why can't you continue? I thought the union hall guy told me that the B card doesn't last forever if you don't work a certain number of days in a year, and it's only the first job that's guaranteed.

[mb05j]

In this economy the B card might be a big help. Since you alway have an AB Limited then do the oiler program and you can ship as either rating. (Assuming you have RFPNW and like engine room work after you get your oiler.)

I agree with everything your saying, but I'm not an engine room guy, my career path is to the bridge. I would like to learn engine stuff, because I think it's good for a Cpt to know everything about his/her ship. I do have rfpnw and a 100 ton as well w/ tow and sail endorsements. Also lifeboatman.

[mb05j]

Also, if my understanding is correct, you don't get 1 for 1 sea time in the er.

[Capt. Phoenix]

Also, if my understanding is correct, you don't get 1 for 1 sea time in the er.

I don't see why you wouldn't. But it is 1 for 1 as far as engine upgrades. You can only use so much engine time (on a 1 for 1 basis) towards a deck license, but it is still 1 for 1.

My point is that if you do the oiler program and get that rating you can ship as either. Being more versatile can make the difference between working and not.

[mb05j]

I think that's very good advice. You never know when you'll need any job. I never gave the er much thought, but I'll give it more credence going forward.

[MariaW]

I font see why you wouldn't. But it is 1 for 1 ad far as engine upgrades. You can only use so much engine time (on a 1 for 1 basis) towards a deck license, but it is still 1 for 1.

My point is that if you do the oiler program and get that rating you can ship as either. Being more versatile can make the difference between working and not.

Are you saying that if you work in the engine room you get 1 for 1 towards engine upgrades, plus a certain amount of time towards a deck license? I doubt the converse is true, so someone could argue your time spent in the engine room is more useful all around towards advancement than time spent in the deck department.

In mb05j's particular case however, I'm not sure the apprentice program will grant him time towards a deck license if he picks engine. The program doesn't count days of sea time during the training, that's why you don't get credit if you have to leave early. I asked this question specifically when I called the apprentice program office. So he will come out still with an AB Limited where he left off plus his new engine qualification. Is the B card you get when finishing Piney Point department specific? Can you graduate in the deck department and get priority for entry level steward jobs with that B card, for example? If it's department specific then it would be a bad idea to go for engine if you really want deck. I don't know how the union hall thing works, so sorry if I'm wrong here.

[mb05j]

Are you saying that if you work in the engine room you get 1 for 1 towards engine upgrades, plus a certain amount of time towards a deck license? I doubt the converse is true, so someone could argue your time spent in the engine room is more useful all around towards advancement than time spent in the deck department.

I think engine room time is 1 for 2 towards deck licensing. That being said, I have zero interest in the er as a career move. I'm trying to get my unlimited AB as quickly as possible so that I can be an AB on an unlimited vessel, thus allowing me to get a 3rd mate unlimited and continue from there.

[Capt. Phoenix]

I think engine room time is 1 for 2 towards deck licensing. That being said, I have zero interest in the er as a career move. I'm trying to get my unlimited AB as quickly as possible so that I can be an AB on an unlimited vessel, thus allowing me to get a 3rd mate unlimited and continue from there.

An AB Limited can be an AB on unlimited vessels. No AB lower than AB Limited can work on unlimited vessels and no more than half the ABs required by the COI can be AB Limited.

Also, read the service requirements for 3rd Mate:

"(1) Three years of service in the deck department on ocean steam or motor vessels, six months of which shall have been as able seaman, boatswain, or quartermaster, while holding a certificate or endorsement as able seaman. Experience gained in the engine department on vessels of appropriate tonnage may be creditable for up to three months of the service requirements for this officer endorsement;"

Thus, you can only use three months of engine room time but it counts 1 for 1. I think you should be as multi qualified as possible because getting on a ship as a QMED and getting a paycheck is better than sitting in the hall waiting for an AB job and not making money.

[mb05j]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that I could work as an AB on an unlimited vessel. That's very significant for me. Also, I agree with what you said about getting an engine rating for work when necessary, I just don't want to work in the engine dep. permanently.

Im glad I found this forum, you all seem very knowledgable.

[Capt. Phoenix]

Are you saying that if you work in the engine room you get 1 for 1 towards engine upgrades, plus a certain amount of time towards a deck license? I doubt the converse is true, so someone could argue your time spent in the engine room is more useful all around towards advancement than time spent in the deck department.

The same thing applies for 3rd AE as for 3rd Mate:

"(b) Experience gained in the deck department on vessels of 100 gross tons or over can be credited for up to three months of the service requirements under paragraph (a)(1) of this section."

Deck time is creditable 1 for 1 but you can only use three months of it.

In mb05j's particular case however, I'm not sure the apprentice program will grant him time towards a deck license if he picks engine. The program doesn't count days of sea time during the training, that's why you don't get credit if you have to leave early. I asked this question specifically when I called the apprentice program office. So he will come out still with an AB Limited where he left off plus his new engine qualification. Is the B card you get when finishing Piney Point department specific? Can you graduate in the deck department and get priority for entry level steward jobs with that B card, for example? If it's department specific then it would be a bad idea to go for engine if you really want deck. I don't know how the union hall thing works, so sorry if I'm wrong here.

I also do not know for sure how the union thing works. If the B book is department specific then forget what I said. I expect though that it is not rating specific, as long as you are qualified for the job.
As for the sea time; regardless of what the clowns at Piney Point said, sea time always counts. They may try to not give you sea time letters but I doubt there is an exemption for the union in the law that requiores employers to give a seaman his sea time letter within a certain time frame. If you don't think the union will give you a sea time letter have the captain write you one himself right before you get off.

[Capt. Phoenix]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that I could work as an AB on an unlimited vessel. That's very significant for me. Also, I agree with what you said about getting an engine rating for work when necessary, I just don't want to work in the engine dep. permanently.

ust make sure that you can use your B book for all departments you are qualified for.
I can see why the name AB Limited would be misleading, read the manning requirements in the CFRs.

Im glad I found this forum, you all seem very knowledgable.

I do a very good job of pretending... :-D

[Capt. Phoenix]

I tried to go with SIU right after I got my AB-Limited a few years ago and in response to my email to ask if it was possible they would reference me to their school. I would reply that I already have RFPNW and an AB (which I had told them in my original email) and would be sent the same form letter about their school. I didn't know I could just go to a union hall and sign up (and I was no where near one) and so gave up on trying. I can't tell you how useful a B book would be for you. If you signed up at a hall, got your C book and got one or two contracts I think you would then have enough time to get a B book. If you are otherwise employed or have a spouse working and so can afford to wait for a job to get your B book then go for it. I also can't tell you for sure if your B book lets you work in any department for which you are qualified (but it would make sense for it to). Those questions need to be answered by someone who has shipped with SIU.

[MariaW]

As for the sea time; regardless of what the clowns at Piney Point said, sea time always counts. They may try to not give you sea time letters but I doubt there is an exemption for the union in the law that requiores employers to give a seaman his sea time letter within a certain time frame. If you don't think the union will give you a sea time letter have the captain write you one himself right before you get off.

The way it was explained to me was, that the apprentice program, along with the Maritime academies are specifically written into the law, and these programs greatly truncate the time required to gain the rating you're going for because of the dedicated classroom component. There is no 1 to 1 sea service correspondence. You are not shipping out as an employee of the shipping company during the first 90 day gig, so it doesn't count as sea service on its own. I expect if you get to the 4 month union job, that will count as sea time.