maybe we can go on the other tack here...

[c.captain]

Since this topic is germane to most of us here and we do have strong individual feelings on the subject, let's examine that qualities make for a person to be considered as a capable, competent and respected professional mariner by his (or her) peers? Is it intellect? Is it common sense? Is it seamanship? Is if just being a standup all around good shipmate? I, of course, say all four "in spades"

If we can, let's avoid academy vs. hawsepipe and let's certainly try to avoid state school vs. KP. There are many excellent hawsepipers and lousy academy grads and on the same token lousy state grads and excellent KP'ers. Let's just examine the "person" only and I for one, promise to not toss bombs at anyone (even Mr. TMAcadet1...you can come out from hiding son, I promise to not filet you)

I hope we can have an interesting and enlightened conversation amongst ourselves...


.

[Sweat-n-Grease]

Since this topic is germane to most of us here and we do have strong individual feelings on the subject, let's examine that qualities make for a person to be considered as a capable, competent and respected professional mariner by his (or her) peers? Is it intellect? Is it common sense? Is it seamanship? Is if just being a standup all around good shipmate? I, of course, say all four "in spades"

If we can, let's avoid academy vs. hawsepipe and let's certainly try to avoid state school vs. KP. There are many excellent hawsepipers and lousy academy grads and on the same token lousy state grads and excellent KP'ers. Let's just examine the "person" only and I for one, promise to not toss bombs at anyone (even Mr. tmacadet1)

I hope we can have an interesting and enlightened conversation amongst ourselves...

Here is an interesting example of what good faith cooperation among us Merchant Seamen, the US Coast Guard, and a State University can accomplish, it works:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...a010241S62.DTL

[PR-9]

c.captain I agree with you a 100%. But I do not believe this topic will ever be discuss without someone getting their feelings hurt!! But I say let's give it a shot!! It should be fun!!!!

[Sweat-n-Grease]

Since this topic is germane to most of us here and we do have strong individual feelings on the subject, let's examine that qualities make for a person to be considered as a capable, competent and respected professional mariner by his (or her) peers? Is it intellect? Is it common sense? Is it seamanship? Is if just being a standup all around good shipmate? I, of course, say all four "in spades"

I suppose if I post another good quality to have to be "a capable, competent, and respected professional mariner" is to be a tad nuts will stir-up some shit.
So I will not post it.

If we can, let's avoid academy vs. hawsepipe and let's certainly try to avoid state school vs. KP. There are many excellent hawsepipers and lousy academy grads and on the same token lousy state grads and excellent KP'ers. Let's just examine the "person" only and I for one, promise to not toss bombs at anyone (even Mr. tmacadet1).

Does this mean all the fun is gone?

I hope we can have an interesting and enlightened conversation amongst ourselves...

Oh it is it is ..

[c.captain]

c.captain I agree with you a 100%. But I do not believe this topic will ever be discuss without someone getting their feelings hurt!! But I say let's give it a shot!! It should be fun!!!!

I hope feelings don't get hurt and if we don't get personal that shouldn't happen.


To further distill my first post I would say in order of importance

1. being an all around good shipmate since your shortcomings will be overcome by your fellows who will also take an active interest in your learning plus it is very hard to respect an asshole no matter now well he is in the other categories listed.

2. common sense is next because a person without common sense can sink the ship or burn it to the waterline.

3. seamanship is next since good seamanship really is the application of safe working practices learned over the generations and that in the end benefits the ship and her crew

4. intellect is last on the list because ships can be safely and effectively operated by persons who may not be able to diagnose software or know every rule in the CFRs yet having intelligence is never a negative and having book knowledge can keep a crew from suffering grief at the hands of USCG inspectors during an annual COI.


I realize that I did not add experience to my list but it must be fit in somewhere.

[c.captain]

Does this mean all the fun is gone?

It is if you were hoping for cataclysmic powder mag detonations and rivers of blood flowing everywhere

[Sweat-n-Grease]

I'd like to add one more to your list c.captain, namely I feel it's very important for one to thoroughly enjoy whatever profession is chosen. I've sailed with some folks who took every day as yet another unhappy experience. A good number were Captains and Chief Engineers, they made life aboard ship a bit edgy. Not Good! For me, as I look back, I was happy and pleased with what I chose as my life's work. I'm not saying every ship I sailed was enjoyable, there were a few I disliked but I always liked my job and life at sea.

[Sweat-n-Grease]

It is if you were hoping for cataclysmic powder mag detonations and rivers of blood flowing everywhere

Oh my goodness, Nooooooooo
Good Lord !!!!

[coldduck]

Good personal hygiene!!!

Sent from my iPhone using gCaptain

[Sweat-n-Grease]

Good personal hygiene!!!

Sent from my iPhone using gCaptain

You know me?

[KennyW1983]

I think its good to have a laid back attitude. Guys that are assholes and uptight about everything and everyone can make a 2 week hitch seem like an eternity. Relax and enjoy the day. Things could be a lot worse.

[seadog6608]

All of the qualities C. captain pointed out are important as is the proper attitude that Kenny W pointed out. No one likes an asshole. No one likes an incompetant asshole even worse. An intellectual, incompetant asshole with no experience, common sense and lousy personal hygene? folks! We have a winner!

[c.captain]

I hope feelings don't get hurt and if we don't get personal that shouldn't happen.


To further distill my first post I would say in order of importance

1. being an all around good shipmate since your shortcomings will be overcome by your fellows who will also take an active interest in your learning plus it is very hard to respect an asshole no matter now well he is in the other categories listed.

2. common sense is next because a person without common sense can sink the ship or burn it to the waterline.

3. seamanship is next since good seamanship really is the application of safe working practices learned over the generations and that in the end benefits the ship and her crew

4. intellect is last on the list because ships can be safely and effectively operated by persons who may not be able to diagnose software or know every rule in the CFRs yet having intelligence is never a negative and having book knowledge can keep a crew from suffering grief at the hands of USCG inspectors during an annual COI.


I realize that I did not add experience to my list but it must be fit in somewhere.

I'm going to place experience into the #3 slot and move the others down one for the reason that is any person does not have the appropriate experience is not only frustrating to the men he has to work with but can be a danger to the ship. This of course becomes more important as the person rises into higher positions of responsibility. I pointed out in another thread that a master who isn't seasoned can have significant ramifications to the operation. This is one that I personally know having been made a master at a very young an age without the knowledge to know better. This I believe is also much more important with regards to vessels that are more complex with many more personnel aboard since the conseqiences of not having the expereince can make for a situation which can rear its ugly head in an emergency. Did Curt Kuchta have enough experience to be master of the DWH? Did that effect his response to the explosion aboard when it occurred? The USCG report pointed to that. It isn't necessarily age that enters into account here as a man with 20 years at sea as a chief mate say, can just not be truly ready to be a master. Everybody does have to have their first time being the "old man" but he has to be ready for it. Add to that if master isn't a certified DPO on a DP vessel...does he have the experience to be ready for a DP related emergency? Somebody has to be able to take over the desk if everything is going to hell on a handcart and for a master to not have that knowledge of DP, he has to rely of the DPO to deal with it but that same DPO might have caused the incident in the first place.

Also what needs to be mentioned is management (ie. people) skill as well. A poor manager impacts the ship quite significantly. This of course applies more the senior officers than junior, but a poor young manager will be a poor older manager.


.

[cmakin]

I would tend to put "intellect" higher than No. 4. Of course, this all depends how one defines the word. If you mean one who is more intellectual than practical, then yes, it IS less important. If it is defined as a practical application of intelligence and an interest it varied topics, well, then it can only help. Of course being an asshole rarely helps anyone unless the target deserves the treatment, or one is a claims adjuster. . . Oh, wait.

Seriously, I think that an attitude and a willingness to do anything that is asked goes a very long way onboard. This is really important when working with the smaller crews that are becoming more common today in Vessels of all sizes and applications.

[KPEngineer]

Shiny shoes, ability to march, ... wait, wrong thread.

Seriously though,

1. Technical competence. Know your job and be good at it, the rest of us are relying on you. If your not, bust your ass until you are.

2. Good shipmate. The better you are at #2, the more slack we will give you on #1, but only to a point. Practice good hygiene, help me when I need it and I will help you. Be willing to help out even if you consider something "beneath you". Don't take anything too personal and have a thick skin.

3. Capacity for Learning. You could call it intellect I suppose, but be able to learn what you don't know no matter who the teacher is. Crews are small and getting smaller and everyone needs to be a little bit of a jack of many trades. Experience breeds good seamanship (C.Captain's #3 and #4) but only if you make good use of the time to actually learn.

4. Capacity for Teaching. If you are in a leadership position, please be able to pass on what you know and the importance of #s1-3. The future generations of mariners and the future of the industry depend on it. Don't be afraid that the new guy who is 30 years your junior is going to take your job. He may, but it won't be any time soon. Do something for the rest of us and share that vast body of knowledge bouncing around between your ears.

PS - Thanks C.Captain, this is a good thread.

[c.captain]

Here's another two for the list

1. be phyically fit (or at least reasonable healthy). I don't want to have to pull your ass to a lifeboat station if you have a coronary as soon as the bells start ringin.

2. have courage (or at least not be a panicer). I want you to be able to not freeze in an emergency or worse start screaming

[Sweat-n-Grease]

Good personal hygiene!!!

Sent from my iPhone using gCaptain

Oh my goodness .. YES
"Mister, there is no polite way to say this .. you smell awful"

[Sweat-n-Grease]

Here's another two for the list

1. be phyically fit (or at least reasonable healthy).

Sir, us sledgehammer mechanics are in dam good shape, for the shape we're in.
Well, in port there are times ~~~

2. have courage (or at least not be a panicer). I want you to be able to not freeze in an emergency or worse start screaming

I suppose shouting Help Help while running to push the red panic button doesn't count.

[KPEngineer]

Hey KP be a shipmate and make it offical by hittin the thanks button...I'm working at pumpin up my numbers here ;-)

Already done

1. be phyically fit (or at least reasonable healthy). I don't want to have to pull your ass to a lifeboat station if you have a coronary as soon as the bells start ringin.

2. have courage (or at least not be a panicer). I want you to be able to not freeze in an emergency or worse start screaming

Two more good ones. I don't care if you want to panic, just save it for later when we are all safely ashore again. I've seen a Capt on another boat with my old Company who was so large and out of shape that he could barely get up and down the steps to the upper wheelhouse and he couldn't fit in the wheelhouse chair. He had to sit in the settee instead. No one could figure out how he passed his USCG physical. Best guess was that he, or his wife, was paying off his doctor. To make a short story long, everyone agreed that he was going down with the ship since no one could possibly move him if he was unconscious.

[Sweat-n-Grease]

Two more good ones. I don't care if you want to panic, just save it for later when we are all safely ashore again. I've seen a Capt on another boat with my old Company who was so large and out of shape that he could barely get up and down the steps to the upper wheelhouse and he couldn't fit in the wheelhouse chair. He had to sit in the settee instead. No one could figure out how he passed his USCG physical. Best guess was that he, or his wife, was paying off his doctor. To make a short story long, everyone agreed that he was going down with the ship since no one could possibly move him if he was unconscious.

Interesting!
I was First on a LASH vessel (when the First was a day worker), got a call from the the Second at 0430, seems his Oiler didn't show-up for watch (we were at sea). The Second sent the the 00-04 Oiler up to see what was going-on and reported back that the door was locked and no response to knocks on the door. I had keys in my office so I got the right key, knocked on the door, no response, opened the door and found the Oiler we called "Tiny" on the floor, naked and dead. I called the Captain, Chief, and Chief Mate. We four could barely move poor Tiny, he was about 6 and a half feet tall, he had to weight in at over 400 pounds. How in the world was this seaman allowed to sail? A work party was gathered and with great effort we were able to move Tiny to a reefer, Bos'n fabricated a canvas covering. Messages were sent.
Sad, but it happens.