50 ton to 100 ton sea time

**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 04:00 AM

Well I finally got a job and have a question. I'll be decking somedays and running the boat somedays. the boat is over 50 tons but less than 100. There is no license needed, because it doesn't haul goods or people for hire, just company owned materials on their own boat. So, when I send in for an upgrade from 50 to 100 ton, do I say I was captain? Will the coast guard, in their infinate wisdom, say that is illegal since it was over 50 tons?(even if no license was required). Would it just save a bunch of questions to just say I was a deckhand for my sea time, no matter who actually ran the boat those days? Thanks!

**Swampfox** · December 30th, 2011, 07:31 AM

So what are you saying? Do you have a 6-pack now? You can't just upgrade to a 100 ton masters without having something to begin with.
If you went to school and took some classes, submitted your application along with your sea time, then you'd have something. But you can't just submit sea time for a license. You must take a school course and test, or take the
exams at the Coast Guard.

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**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 07:51 AM

I have a 50 ton Masters on the way from the USCG. Sorry I wasn't clear.

**cappy208** · December 30th, 2011, 09:20 AM

Yours is a curious question. You are being paid to run a boat, you are hauling cargo, and you DON'T need a license? That doesn't make sense.

I know that if you have enough money, you can buy an airplane and fly it wherever you like. BUT, you cannot take any passengers, or be paid to do it.

I would assume the law is the same regarding boats. I have always heard that if you are hired to run a vessel for cash, and are carrying cargo (regardless of whether you are paid by the owner of the cargo, or the shipper) you are a commercial vessel, subject to needing a license.

this is like people who started a little 'ferry' near me. they stated (after being caught by the CG) that they were charging for the supplies they carried. but the people were being carried for free, so they weren't carrying passengers for hire. Not that you are carrying passengers, but if you are transporting the company employees, for the completion of their work. then you ARE carrying passengers!

Anyway, get a seatime letter, as deckhand. get a 100 ton license, and don't worry about it.

After thinking about it, I think you are correct in the assumption that you don't need a license. BUT, I bet dollars to donuts that this company has little, if any insurance, and is a somewhat less than great place to work, since if they cut expenses to this degree, they probably don't take care of other conditions too.

**Swampfox** · December 30th, 2011, 09:27 AM

If you have 90 days on a vessel 51 tons or more, that will bump you to 100 ton master. You don't have to have a wheelhouse position, just time on the vessel. Keep it simple.

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**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 09:46 AM

Thanks Swampfox, that's what I needed. Cappy, I'm not naming the company that I'm gonna work for but they've been in business a while. They pride themselves on how they treat their employees, and pay very well. Boats and company are fully insured for liability(I've seen the policy, because I do other work for them). Safety and maintenance are priority on the vessels. 80% of the employees have been there since the company started. You would lose you dollars to my donuts on this one. Thanks again guys.

**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 10:02 AM

And NO, It doesn't matter how much money you have you can't just buy an airplane and fly it where ever you want, passegers or not. I used to be a pilot for a living. LOL!

**Capt. Phoenix** · December 30th, 2011, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by bell47

And NO, It doesn't matter how much money you have you can't just buy an airplane and fly it where ever you want, passegers or not. I used to be a pilot for a living. LOL!

I think you can as long as it is classed as an experimental aircraft.

**cappy208** · December 30th, 2011, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Capt. Schmitt

I think you can as long as it is classed as an experimental aircraft.

That is exactly what I was thinking. ALA John Denver and his mooney EZLong

OK, maybe not an exact analogy, but gets the point across.

Since you used to make a living as a pilot, then you should be well versed in the nuances of passengers for hire, and different levels of licenses. The boat analogy is the same. Using your example, if you are operating a vessel for a company, being paid to do it, and carry more than your deckhand around, then you should be licensed. you are hired to run a vessel. If I hired a guy to run my sailboat i damned sure would want him to be licensed!

**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Capt. Schmitt

I think you can as long as it is classed as an experimental aircraft.

Maybe in some ultralight or other suicide rig, but not a real airplane. You have to be signed off, by a certified flight instructor, to solo, after some training. even then a solo endorsement doen't last forever(90 days I think) and you can't go farther than like 50 miles from the airport. and no passengers. No instructor is gonna just keep signing off solo endorsements forever either, because you are basically flying under his/her licence. Just because it's "expeirimental" doesn't mean anything for training. There are Boeing 747's that are certificated as "expierimental", Pratt and Whitney owns one, that doesn't just mean anyone can fly it. An airplane Type Certificate such as expierimental, utility, restricted, or normal(there's a bunch more) basically states how the plane is built and how it can be used. I guess if you talked the FAA into letting you change the type certificate of a plane to expierimental with no training required, and they signed off on it, you would be good to go kill yourself in it. WAIT A MINUTE...... I THOUGHT THIS WAS ABOUT BOATS!............ I hate airplanes!

**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 12:12 PM

It's the same with airplanes.......... A company employee can pilot a company airplane(with a basic private pilots license) with company personel and goods from point A to point B and stay on the clock if hourly or still get their salary. If they are actually just PAID TO FLY they have to have a commercial pilots licence. Same with a boat. Company goods and company personel going from point A to point B and returning with company owned goods and same personel. Nothing owned by anyone else is transported. No licence required. The second you haul something for someone and get paid for it , the captain better have a licence for the boat.

**Flyer69** · December 30th, 2011, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by bell47

It's the same with airplanes.......... A company employee can pilot a company airplane(with a basic private pilots license) with company personel and goods from point A to point B and stay on the clock if hourly or still get their salary. If they are actually just PAID TO FLY they have to have a commercial pilots licence. Same with a boat. Company goods and company personel going from point A to point B and returning with company owned goods and same personel. Nothing owned by anyone else is transported. No licence required. The second you haul something for someone and get paid for it , the captain better have a licence for the boat.

Same with a boat? Are you sure?

**bell47** · December 30th, 2011, 01:17 PM

YES, for this job, I'm pretty sure. They've been in business a while, and I know they have been boarded and looked at by the CG with no issues. I'm sending in for my 100 Master upgrade in the spring anyway( I only need 27 more days sea time).... it's a moot point. Oh, and I wasn't HIRED TO RUN A BOAT, I was hired to get a certain job done and one part of that involves using and helping on the company boats sometimes. Thanks again guys.

**cappy208** · December 30th, 2011, 02:02 PM

Curious, do these vessels have COI's or COD's? If they have COI's read them.

**Flyer69** · December 30th, 2011, 02:16 PM

Also curious, what is the endorsement on the document? Pleasure or coastwise?

**Flyer69** · February 6th, 2012, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by bell47

YES, for this job, I'm pretty sure. They've been in business a while, and I know they have been boarded and looked at by the CG with no issues. I'm sending in for my 100 Master upgrade in the spring anyway( I only need 27 more days sea time).... it's a moot point. Oh, and I wasn't HIRED TO RUN A BOAT, I was hired to get a certain job done and one part of that involves using and helping on the company boats sometimes. Thanks again guys.

Someone was asking about this thread?

**PMC** · February 7th, 2012, 12:34 AM

Just make sure your sea time letter says that you were a member of the DECK CREW.

**cappy208** · February 7th, 2012, 07:25 AM

Interesting article in professional mariner Feb 12. A landing craft being used to transport goods and workers was recently busted for 1. captain DUI, and 2. Unlicensed.

Sort of goes to the issue of whether Bell47 is required to have a license.

Mr.Cavo: what exactly IS the wording on being hired to operate a vessel carrying freight and people for a company. It appears that although the people are employees of the company that owns the vessel in this instance, is the distinction whether the operator receives payment, versus the people paying for passage?

**jdcavo** · February 7th, 2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by cappy208

Yours is a curious question. You are being paid to run a boat, you are hauling cargo, and you DON'T need a license? That doesn't make sense...

It's possible. If the vessel is under 26' and is not towing goods for hire, it may be "utility towing" which does not currently require a license.

**cappy208** · February 7th, 2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by jdcavo

It's possible. If the vessel is under 26' and is not towing goods for hire, it may be "utility towing" which does not currently require a license.

Reading between the lines, the vessel mentioned is over 50 tons. And it was mentioned it hauls freight. So if the vessel is UNDER 26' it needs NO license. I'm going over my list of boats I have run. I can't recall ONE that was over 50 tons that didn't exceed 26'. Ignorance is no excuse.

So if an operator is operating a vessel (like the guy in Alaska), with no license, what is the penalty? I am trying to get the info out there, so someone who wants to run a boat for hire (like Bell47) knows what the results of running a vessel (however it is called in the OP, helping, running, working on as operator) with no license and what it can 'cost' the operator. Trying to get clarification as to what does 'For Hire' mean? Does this mean someone is hired to run a boat, or does this mean the cargo or people have paid? I guess, looking at it more simply, if I went down to the harbor and asked someone to 'run my boat' for money, does this require a license? Does it have a tonnage or length caveat? Is this solely concerning carrying passengers? Does this concern freight? There was another guy on here not too long ago who asked, "Can I run cargo with my fishing boat?" Does this mean he needs a license too?

I can't recall how many times I have heard the phrase: "The company would not ask me to do something illegal, they MUST know the regulations!"