Houston Ship PIlots do not own the HSC!

[OICUR12]

If I am mistaken correct me, but last time I checked my rules of the road a vessel engaged in towing has the right of way over a power driven vessel no matter how large that power driven vessel may be. Yes?
Also in an overtaking situation it is the stand on vessel's duty to maintain course and speed and the overtaking vessel's duty to stay clear of the stand on vessel.
Overtaking another vessel is a privilege and not a right.
If the stand on vessel does not think it is safe for you to overtake, it is your duty to remain behind that vessel until the stand on vessel grants you permission to overtake.
If you say "piss on him" and overtake without permission, if anything happens it's on you bro. Not to mention the fact that you are breaking a federal law.

On any given day or night if you listen to channel 13 you will hear Houston ship pilots not only driving their boat but trying to drive your boat for you also.
By this I mean you will hear, "Cap., I need you to tighten up on those greens (or reds) so I can overtake you."
All the towboats and smaller vessels that run the ship channel stay on the very edge of the channel as it is and some are even forced out of the channel by bully ship pilots and the bow cushion that they throw.

When the current is flooding on the HSC if you are inbound it will set you on the reds.If the tide is ebbing and you are outbound it will set you on the greens.
I made the mistake once of letting a ship bully me over on to the reds while the current was flooding and when he passed me his bow cushion pushed my tow right over the top of one of those $17,000 solar powered day boards.
Yes, that is how much they billed our insurance company.I would venture to say that the newer ones with the "knock down sensors" on them are probably in excess of $20 grand.
The ship pilot just kept on trucking.No skin off his nose, right?Meanwhile it cost me a CG 2692 and damn near cost me my job.

A towboat or any other vessel has just as much right to stay in the center of "his lane" as a ship."Tightening up" on the day boards is a courtesy that we grant you because tow boaters in general are not just boat trash but are pretty good fellas that are more than willing to try and accommodate anybody.

The Houston ship channel, even in its narrowest parts, is more than wide enough for 1 ship to overtake 1 tow no matter how wide they both are and no matter what the draft of the ship is.

Having enough space to overtake only becomes an issue when pushy ship pilots want to meet another ship that is overtaking tows running the edge of that ship's side of the channel while the same pushy ship pilot is overtaking tows on his side of the channel.
You guys have a throttle too, right?That means you can slow down if I am not mistaken.
How about slowing down and letting traffic clear up a little bit instead of pressuring us to take risks that we are not required to take?
You might say "I can't slow down and maintain steerage!"
Then it is your duty to have assist tugs escort you; the whole way in or out if necessary.
If you are a "Deep and Wide Bodied Ship" then you should be in the middle of the channel; or in your lane running close to the center of the channel anyway.
This being the case you should not need a tow or any other vessel to "tighten up" on anything.


Last night I was outbound HSC with the tide on the ebb.
I was running the very edge of the ship channel and at times even getting set outside the channel where there was good water.
As usual I was dodging every damn day board the whole way out because I don't like to listen to the bitching by the ship pilots when I am not on the very edge of the channel.
An outbound ship was approaching me from astern at 15 knots.
I saw him back there and I was maintaining about a 25' lateral distance on every green for him.
There was also an inbound ship approaching me at about 13 knots.
Instead of either one of these ship pilots slowing down their way to allow for a safe meeting situation, they both kept steaming to create a situation in which the outbound ship would be overtaking me at the same time he met the inbound ship and my tow on the 1.
From 3 miles astern the outbound ship tells me I need to "tighten up" on the greens as if I was in the wrong.

I politely told him that I was already passing the greens "danger close" at a distance of about 25' abeam of my tow.

He takes a look at his chart plotter (which is never inaccurate, right?) and tells me that there is no way I am 25' off those greens.
I used my Xeon to light up the day board and yes it was about 25' off my starboard side.
From 3 miles away he could not see this but there was no way his chart plotter could be wrong, right?
He kept steaming and never asked permission to overtake but rather told me that he was going to overtake me on the 2 regardless because he was" tired of arguing with me".
I politely told him that I was going to maintain course and speed and that if he felt he did not have enough room to overtake me safely that he needed to stay behind me until the inbound ship cleared us both.
Is "whatever" a nautical term I am not familiar with?
Because that was his response as he proceeded to overtake me while meeting the other ship on the 1.
His bow cushion and 3' wake pushed me over on to my next green and I just barely missed it by putting a hard steer to starboard on.
I missed it by about 2'.
This hard steer took me outside the channel into 7' of water while I was pushing a red flag barge that was loaded with 30k bbls of Benzene to a draft of 9' 6".
My barge started rubbing bottom and my wheels started talking to me.
They were saying, "You are in 7' of water dumbass and I draft 8'6".
After the aforementioned asshole passed me I had to put a hard steer to port on (that my rudders did not appreciate because they were already dragging bottom) to try and get back into the ship channel to miss the next green day board; or option two was keep running outside the greens and run fully aground.
S
aid asshole just kept on trucking and could care less about what he just did to me or the situation he put me into.
One pilot to the other...."Hey, Bob, how's the wife and kids?"
"Doin' good. Man, I don't know what that guy's problem was.The chart shows plenty of water outside those greens."

After all charts are never wrong either are they?

And as if I am expected to run outside the fucking charted channel with a red flag tow to make room for you?
Next time you are gonna be cussing me because I stayed in the center of my lane and you had to slow down or run your ship aground to keep from hitting me.

Thinking you will just run me over?
Make my day.
I can jump pretty far and swim pretty well.

I am ready for early retirement from a nice multimillion dollar settlement paid out to me by your pilot's association because you think the size of the boat dictates right of way.
Are you that stupid that you would kill an entire boat crew and destroy your several hundred thousand dollar a year job just because you think you have the right of way when you legally don't?
And instead of using first names why don't you guys act like the professionals you are supposed to be and use your pilot number so I can write them down next time and file a formal complaint with the USCG and your pilot's association.

Believe me if I didn't have my hands full I would have called traffic and got your number, buddy.
But then I would have had to fill out a 2692 for running my tow aground.It wasn't worth it.
My company would fire me for costing them another "incident" on the "email wall of shame".


In summary, we have the right of way over you.Start acting like it.
You drive your boat and I'll drive mine.
And next time (you can bet there will be a next time) you can kiss my ass, Bob, Joe, Chuck, or whatever your name is.

[Jemplayer]

Sad thing is they would throw Vessel Constrained By Draft at you. Technically you're in the right, but the CG aint happy till they walk away with somebodies head on a platter and 99% sure it won't be the pilot. At worst he might get a letter on his file, but he also has MOPS insurance so fuck it let the lawyers deal with it is what he's thinking.

If you do plan to play chicken with the ships though be sure to make sure your MOPS insurance is up to date and go ahead and take out the criminal and salary insurance too. And let us know how it turns out.

Don't get me wrong I'm rooting for you, just hate that the deck is stacked.

[coldduck]

Vessel constrained by draft? Didn't think that rule applied to inland navigation(rule 28).

[cappy208]

I think you may need to re read the ROR.

A towing vessel does NOT have the right of way over anything else simply because they are a tug.

A towing vessel is simply a different form of a 'power driven' vessel, much like a sailboat is a power driven vessel when it is being propelled by her engine, or a fishing boat underway to or from the fishing grounds is simply a power driven vessel.

You may be thinking of a 'vessel RAM'. of which the various classes of vessels one is mentioned as being a 'towing vessel which by the nature of her work is unable to deviate from course.' As described, Your tug is not a RAM vessel. I know of some operators who feel they are somehow privileged to invoke a RAM situation since they have a "Jumbo" or gee the wind is on the weak side, or some such, BUT those conditions are NOT RAM, but poor choices in undertaking over sized barges under circumstances which (like you mentioned) would demand a helper tug, or assist.

Your situation only shows you had the right of way, solely because you were being overtaken.

If I were you, I would re print your description, (without mentioning the towing vessel "always" having the right of way, and the mention of rudders going in the mud,) and send it to the Houston Pilot Commissioners office, and the USCG MSO in Houston/Galveston. Ask for an explanation why an overtaking vessel (after you disagreed to being overtaken) forced you to within 2' of a day mark, and would not 'work with you' to accomplish a safe passage while meeting an inbound vessel. THAT is the issue, not whether you have the right of way all the time on a Tug.

[Kennebec Captain]

If I am mistaken correct me, but last time I checked my rules of the road a vessel engaged in towing has the right of way over a power driven vessel no matter how large that power driven vessel may be. Yes?
Also in an overtaking situation it is the stand on vessel's duty to maintain course and speed and the overtaking vessel's duty to stay clear of the stand on vessel.
Overtaking another vessel is a privilege and not a right.
If the stand on vessel does not think it is safe for you to overtake, it is your duty to remain behind that vessel until the stand on vessel grants you permission to overtake.
If you say "piss on him" and overtake without permission, if anything happens it's on you bro. Not to mention the fact that you are breaking a federal law.

On any given day or night if you listen to channel 13 you will hear Houston ship pilots not only driving their boat but trying to drive your boat for you also.
By this I mean you will hear, "Cap., I need you to tighten up on those greens (or reds) so I can overtake you."
All the towboats and smaller vessels that run the ship channel stay on the very edge of the channel as it is and some are even forced out of the channel by bully ship pilots and the bow cushion that they throw.

When the current is flooding on the HSC if you are inbound it will set you on the reds.If the tide is ebbing and you are outbound it will set you on the greens.
I made the mistake once of letting a ship bully me over on to the reds while the current was flooding and when he passed me his bow cushion pushed my tow right over the top of one of those $17,000 solar powered day boards.
Yes, that is how much they billed our insurance company.I would venture to say that the newer ones with the "knock down sensors" on them are probably in excess of $20 grand.
The ship pilot just kept on trucking.No skin off his nose, right?Meanwhile it cost me a CG 2692 and damn near cost me my job.

A towboat or any other vessel has just as much right to stay in the center of "his lane" as a ship."Tightening up" on the day boards is a courtesy that we grant you because tow boaters in general are not just boat trash but are pretty good fellas that are more than willing to try and accommodate anybody.

The Houston ship channel, even in its narrowest parts, is more than wide enough for 1 ship to overtake 1 tow no matter how wide they both are and no matter what the draft of the ship is.

Having enough space to overtake only becomes an issue when pushy ship pilots want to meet another ship that is overtaking tows running the edge of that ship's side of the channel while the same pushy ship pilot is overtaking tows on his side of the channel.
You guys have a throttle too, right?That means you can slow down if I am not mistaken.
How about slowing down and letting traffic clear up a little bit instead of pressuring us to take risks that we are not required to take?
You might say "I can't slow down and maintain steerage!"
Then it is your duty to have assist tugs escort you; the whole way in or out if necessary.
If you are a "Deep and Wide Bodied Ship" then you should be in the middle of the channel; or in your lane running close to the center of the channel anyway.
This being the case you should not need a tow or any other vessel to "tighten up" on anything.


Last night I was outbound HSC with the tide on the ebb.
I was running the very edge of the ship channel and at times even getting set outside the channel where there was good water.
As usual I was dodging every damn day board the whole way out because I don't like to listen to the bitching by the ship pilots when I am not on the very edge of the channel.
An outbound ship was approaching me from astern at 15 knots.
I saw him back there and I was maintaining about a 25' lateral distance on every green for him.
There was also an inbound ship approaching me at about 13 knots.
Instead of either one of these ship pilots slowing down their way to allow for a safe meeting situation, they both kept steaming to create a situation in which the outbound ship would be overtaking me at the same time he met the inbound ship and my tow on the 1.
From 3 miles astern the outbound ship tells me I need to "tighten up" on the greens as if I was in the wrong.

I politely told him that I was already passing the greens "danger close" at a distance of about 25' abeam of my tow.

He takes a look at his chart plotter (which is never inaccurate, right?) and tells me that there is no way I am 25' off those greens.
I used my Xeon to light up the day board and yes it was about 25' off my starboard side.
From 3 miles away he could not see this but there was no way his chart plotter could be wrong, right?
He kept steaming and never asked permission to overtake but rather told me that he was going to overtake me on the 2 regardless because he was" tired of arguing with me".
I politely told him that I was going to maintain course and speed and that if he felt he did not have enough room to overtake me safely that he needed to stay behind me until the inbound ship cleared us both.
Is "whatever" a nautical term I am not familiar with?
Because that was his response as he proceeded to overtake me while meeting the other ship on the 1.
His bow cushion and 3' wake pushed me over on to my next green and I just barely missed it by putting a hard steer to starboard on.
I missed it by about 2'.
This hard steer took me outside the channel into 7' of water while I was pushing a red flag barge that was loaded with 30k bbls of Benzene to a draft of 9' 6".
My barge started rubbing bottom and my wheels started talking to me.
They were saying, "You are in 7' of water dumbass and I draft 8'6".
After the aforementioned asshole passed me I had to put a hard steer to port on (that my rudders did not appreciate because they were already dragging bottom) to try and get back into the ship channel to miss the next green day board; or option two was keep running outside the greens and run fully aground.
S
aid asshole just kept on trucking and could care less about what he just did to me or the situation he put me into.
One pilot to the other...."Hey, Bob, how's the wife and kids?"
"Doin' good. Man, I don't know what that guy's problem was.The chart shows plenty of water outside those greens."

After all charts are never wrong either are they?

And as if I am expected to run outside the fucking charted channel with a red flag tow to make room for you?
Next time you are gonna be cussing me because I stayed in the center of my lane and you had to slow down or run your ship aground to keep from hitting me.

Thinking you will just run me over?
Make my day.
I can jump pretty far and swim pretty well.

I am ready for early retirement from a nice multimillion dollar settlement paid out to me by your pilot's association because you think the size of the boat dictates right of way.
Are you that stupid that you would kill an entire boat crew and destroy your several hundred thousand dollar a year job just because you think you have the right of way when you legally don't?
And instead of using first names why don't you guys act like the professionals you are supposed to be and use your pilot number so I can write them down next time and file a formal complaint with the USCG and your pilot's association.

Believe me if I didn't have my hands full I would have called traffic and got your number, buddy.
But then I would have had to fill out a 2692 for running my tow aground.It wasn't worth it.
My company would fire me for costing them another "incident" on the "email wall of shame".


In summary, we have the right of way over you.Start acting like it.
You drive your boat and I'll drive mine.
And next time (you can bet there will be a next time) you can kiss my ass, Bob, Joe, Chuck, or whatever your name is.

This has got to be one of the best post by a professional mariner on this forum ever.

The Rules of the road are available on line BTW. On your way to the rule that gives tows the right of way over vessels that require pilots in the HSC have a look at Rule 2.

K.C.

[Jemplayer]

Vessel constrained by draft? Didn't think that rule applied to inland navigation(rule 28).

It's implied that all vessels are constrained by draft since you do have banks on both sides. So when two vessels are meeting the one with the most draft, and thus most constrained by draft, will have be more in the right. Also it's rule 3, 28 is just the lights used.

Never mind the rules of the road. Some where in your SMS I'm sure there is something to the affect that the Master will operate the vessel in a safe manner and avoid accidents. With this simple statement they will open an Article 5 investigation which means they will look into bringing charges against you for not following your SMS.

Rule 9- Tows only have the right of way when they are with the outbound current on the western rivers, great lakes, and other waters as deemed by the secretary. I don't know if HSC is considered part of the western rivers, never worked tugs and I try to stay out of there way were ever I am, but OICUR12 was outbound with the tide.

[cappy208]

OICUR12 was outbound with the tide.

Re read the rule. Your rule only applies to MEETING. This was an OVERTAKING situation.

The ship was OVERTAKING. Not that the ship needed consent to overtake, but the ship Pilot perspective was that he completed the overtaking process successfully. I am sure Oicur12 disagrees!

In spite of the Pilots warped perspective, It sounds as if Oicur 12 did a masterful job of missing the next beacon.

Isn't it written somewhere that you are responsible for your wake, wash and suction?

To me it seems the issue is not following the ROR by the ship pilot. Specifically, the Overtaking Rule 9(e) (i) and Rule 13 reinforces that notion. Oicur12 was not aboard a 'less than 20 meter, sailing vessel' which is prohibited from impeding. These were between two commercial vessels, which both (coincidentally) can only navigate IN the channel!

The constrained by draft argument doesn't apply here. Neither vessel (as per Oicur12's description) could navigate outside the channel. Just because one is a ship, and one is a barge is irrelevant,

I think the bug topic here is the arrogance of the Pilots, who think they are all that and a bag of chips.

[Kennebec Captain]

I've made a few transits over the years of the HSC with a pilot. We have a 104 ft beam and a 28 ft draft more or less

I would characterize the relationship between the pilots and the operators of the tows as professional and one of mutual respect. Generally the tow operators will contact the pilot and discuss the situation when they think that the meeting will be in an unfavorable place. They often ask the pilot if they want them to hold up or to keep coming etc, I would say that generally the tow operators defer to the ship pilots in this matter. This is typical world-wide in narrow channels like this.

It is important to know the rules of the road of course but if you are going to be operating in an area as busy the the HSC it is also important to have local knowledge and an understanding of local customs etc. I agree that the pilots don't own the HSC but I wouldn't argue if someone was to claim that the pilots run it.

K.C.

[rigdvr]

Local customs DO NOT override the RoR, period.

There is NO cbd designation in inland waters of any sort, period.

The pilot must ASK to overtake and recieve permission from overtaken vessel, period.

The only rule close to aplicable here would be that no vessel shall impede the passage of another vessel that can not travel outside a narrow channel...but that would apply to both vessels in this situation.

Looks like alot of folks need a RoR refresher.....

[Kennebec Captain]

Local customs DO NOT override the RoR, period.

There is NO cbd designation in inland waters of any sort, period.

The pilot must ASK to overtake and recieve permission from overtaken vessel, period.

The only rule close to aplicable here would be that no vessel shall impede the passage of another vessel that can not travel outside a narrow channel...but that would apply to both vessels in this situation.

Looks like alot of folks need a RoR refresher.....

I don't think of local customs and practices as being in opposition with the rules of the road. Say for example it is the practice in a port for ships to give a security call before a certain sharp turn. Say a small vessel is coming the other way and decides not to answer that call, instead they plan to meet the ship in the turn and both vessels will have to deal as best each can in accordance with the rules of the road

If there is a collision or one or both vessel are forced aground the vessel which ignored local custom to answer the security call would be in violation Rule 2 which reads in part:

"Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case."

In the case of the HSC it is the ordinary practice of seaman for smaller vessels and larger deep-draft vessels to negotiate via VHF with regards to how when and where to meet in the narrow channels. If a mariner on a smaller vessel decides to ignore this practice he would be in violation of rule 2.

K.C.

[cappy208]

I think you got it right. But the mariner who ignored the practice in Oicur12's example was NOT the smaller vessel operator, but the Pilot. Thus the issue.

[Kennebec Captain]

http://www.gicaonline.com/media/tool...c_brochure.pdf

I think you got it right. But the mariner who ignored the practice in Oicur12's example was NOT the smaller vessel operator, but the Pilot. Thus the issue.

The practice in the HSC is that if the smaller vessel can adjust it's timing to avoid a tight squeeze they do, if they can't the larger vessel does. It is also the practice that smaller vessels hug the side of the channel or stay outside (Navigating the Houston Ship Canal (pdf) here) most tow operators understand and accept that situation. Does anyone realistically think that a single tug operator is going to change the daily practice in the canal so he can keep his tow in the middle of his lane? It ain't gonna happen.

Meeting and overtaking other vessels in the HSC takes a high degree of skill. Refusing to do it on the grounds that tugs have the right of way or you don't think it's safe when in fact it is standard practice by experienced operators is not going to cut it. If someone has a complaint about a specific encounter all they need is the name of the vessel, the name of the pilot on board that day is a matter of record.



K.C.

[chemcarrier]

I would love to change a lot of things. For example how much radio traffic (bullshitting) on 13 there is in Fourchon. However just like the Pilots in the HSC, some shit just isn't gonna change. So suck it up and Drive on. Or quit.

[rigdvr]

KC, please read his complaint again. He was hugging the side of the channel. The pilot was intent on overtaking while three wide in the channel.
I agree that common sense and courtesy gives large ships leeway on rules. But it does not absolve them from their responsibility. It is unacceptable for any mariner to reply with "whatever" and pass on their own terms when an arrangement can not be made and put another vessel at risk

[Tugboattim]

I have been inbound/outbound on the HSC both on an inland tow, and a ship that was under pilotage. I agree that all ships, tows, tugs should be following the RoR, in regards to over taking, safe speed, also, rule 9 narrow channels "...shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable." A ship with a draft of 30+ft must be in the near center of the channel, a tow with a draft of 10ft can be on the outer edge of the channel to allow and maintain a safe passage. At the same time it is every ship/tow/tug operators duty to ensure safe navigation and a safe transit. In regards to speed, sometimes a tows max speed 5-7kts may be the ships bare steerage speed. It is also very easy or i would say more safe for the tug to "pull them back" and kill a few minutes to allow for the ship to maneuver around the tow. There is more water for tows, then ships even within the channel.
Yes, they should have come to an agreement before the overtaking situation took place, but at the same time, what would you have liked the ship to do, they cannot just stop and wait.
I also agree the stand on vsl is required to maintain speed and course, but sometimes these actions alone would not prevent a safe passage.
I have been inbound/outbound on the HSC more times on a inland tow then ship, but i have not had any problems, being that it is such a busy channel for all types of ships, i think everyone has to work together to keep it moving smoothly and safely.

[Kennebec Captain]

http://www.gicaonline.com/media/tool...c_brochure.pdf"

KC, please read his complaint again. He was hugging the side of the channel. The pilot was intent on overtaking while three wide in the channel.
I agree that common sense and courtesy gives large ships leeway on rules. But it does not absolve them from their responsibility. It is unacceptable for any mariner to reply with "whatever" and pass on their own terms when an arrangement can not be made and put another vessel at risk

Yes I suppose it has a "the five blind men and the elephant" element to it.

Tugboattin above has it about right I think. Large vessels are running with less margin then smaller vessels.It may be less risky for a tow to refuse to be passed but if you consider the total risk faced by both vessels in some cases it is better for the larger vessel to go by and be able to maintain speed.

The optimum solution would be if tows and ships coordinated and cooperated and arranged to pass in a safe place. This is what the pilots and most tow operators are trying to achieve via VHF. A "you run your vessel and I'll run mine" is contrary to what is required for smooth operations on a busy waterway such as the HSC. I see on that pdf file on hazards faced in the canal one hazard is what is called "the uncooperative mariner"

My dead slow speed is 6.5 kts (engine speed 28 rpm) but I understand some container ships have a dead slow speed of 8 kts. One problem, particularly on a car ship, is leeway in a cross wind. In the lower part of the canal 14 kts or better is good. Even better, if conditions allow I would like to run faster, say 17 kts or more. One a long transit with several delays I am going to run into fatigue issues if delayed too long as I have crew on the wheel/bow/engine room while maneuvering.

Bottom line I think is don't come out and play on the HSC unless you're prepared to run at that level. And if you get pitched a fast ball high and inside next time don't crowd the plate.

K.C.

[Capt. Phoenix]

Bottom line I think is don't come out and play on the HSC unless you're prepared to run at that level. And if you get pitched a fast ball high and inside next time don't crowd the plate.

He want crowding the plate. He was being considerate and already hugging the green and the pilot didn't believe he could not get over any farther and passed anyway, even though it was not safe. The pilot should have planned earlier how to meet the traffic when he could have still made speed adjustments or asked the tug to do the same.

[sweet water 70]

It would be good to hear the other side of the story from the pilot in question. I doubt it would be the same exaggerated story.

[Cal]

...or you don't think it's safe when in fact it is standard practice by experienced operators is not going to cut it.

Actually, that is ALL that is required. As the Master, or Mate acting on the Masters behalf, if you believe something is unsafe, you have an obligation to do something. Local custom or standard practice by "experienced operators" becomes secondary in importance.

Any operator knows the "Bigger Rule" and out of professional courtesy will take action to accommodate a larger vessel. But this courtesy does not create an obligation and it appears to me that such is an important fact that is being overlooked.

[Capt. Phoenix]

Local custom will not hold up in court; it is just that, custom. Though I do not believe the inland rules require the overtaken vessel to give permission like the international rules do the burden is still on the overtaking vessel to ensure he can do it safely for both vessels. In this case it appears he waited too long to contact the tug. If he had made contact sooner he could have asked the tug to slow down to keep from meeting three wide.