3/M Working on a Tug ? Time to Renew License

[njtug]

Since leaving SUNY I've been working as mate on towing vessels. It's now time to renew my ticket. With four years service on towing vessels over 200ton but less than 1600 ton. Half of my time was as AB, and half as a mate. I currently hold a 3rd mate unlimited with an completed TOAR and would like a 1600ton Master. Possible???? When I renew my credentials with the USCG can I ask for 1600ton Master?

Also, the Tugs that I have been on are all "married" to the same barge which are 100,000 bbl oil barges

Thanks In Advance...

[Mr 100-ton]

1 year as 3rd mate will give you 2nd mate and eligible for the 70 question crossover test 1600 master

make sure you sea time says 3rd mate,,,, not sure about the tonnage,,,,,,, you might get a 2nd mate with limited tonnage

3rd mate unlmited tonnage
2nd mate limited to (???????) tonnage
1600 master

all on the same license i think it will read

[njtug]

Thanks Mr. 100 ton. I didn't know there was a limited 2nd mates license? What do i need to study for the 70 question crossover test?

[Mr 100-ton]

Not sure,,, someone else will have to answer that,,,,,

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/M...T.pdf&B1=GO%21

[50thState]

I'm not sure 100 Ton has this one right. I don't think you can upgrade to 2/M, then crossover with strictly tug time. It sounds like you have zero unlimited seatime. I'm in kind of the same situation as you. Graduated from an academy two and a half years ago. All my time is on tugs. I just got approved to test for my 1600 Ton Master Oceans, but it is the full 7 module test (same as the 3/M Unlimited test we took at school). I would say renew your Third Mate, then send in an app to upgrade to 1600 Master.

Unless "married" means you're on an ATB? then it might be a different story

[Mr 100-ton]

there is one thing in his favor I think,,,, his time is OVER 200 tons,,,, personally i would put the app in to NMC and see what they say

This is from the checklist

2nd MATE 46 CFR
360 days of service as OICNW on Ocean/NC steam or motor vessels while
holding a MMC as 3rd Mate,

from the second mate checklist
Unlimited Tonnage 46 CFR
All required service is on vessels over 200 GRT, AND 11.402
50% of the required service is on vessels over 1600 GRT.
A Tonnage Limitation may be issued if 50% of the required
service is not on vessels over 1600 GRT; however, ALL required
service MUST be on vessels over 200 GRT).
Limited to max tonnage on which 25% of experience is obtained, OR 11.402
Limited to 150% tonnage which 50% of service spent WHICHEVER
GREATER.


EXAMS
(see Deck Exam Guide)
Applicants for 2nd Mate, who were issued their 3rd Mate endorsement AFTER February
1, 2002; NO further exams required.

[Mr 100-ton]

here's one thing I am not sure of

on the Recency – 90 days in the past 3 years on vessels of appropriate tonnage 11.201

what does the appropriate tonnage mean?? i looked in the CFR listed above and have not found good info

[50thState]

Sounds like that over 200 tons makes it a whole different deal. We aren't in a similar situation after all. Hopefully the NMC does you right, if they give you any trouble make sure you get all the way through to talk to your evaluator over the phone. I've found it makes a big difference. Good luck.

[wafinator]

I'm pretty sure you can't upgrade to 2/M AGT on tug time.

because you mentioned "married" and a 100k bbls barge, I'm assuming ATB, so you have this to consider:
46 CFR 11.211 (d) - Service on a Dual Mode Integrated Tug Barge (ITB) unit is creditable for original or raise of grade of any deck officer endorsement. Service on a Dual Mode ITB with an aggregate tonnage of over 1600 gross tons is creditable on a two-for-one basis (two days experience equals one day of creditable service) for up to 50 percent of the total service on vessels over 1600 gross tons required for an unlimited officer endorsement. The remaining required service on vessels of over 1600 gross tons must be obtained on conventional vessels or Push Mode ITBs.

conventional ATBs (intercon, bludworth, jak, etc) are dual mode. NVIC 2-81. This CFR basically shoots down any assumptions one might have about aggregate ATB tonnage and unlimited seatime. They do throw you a bone, but not much. The way I read it together with 11.402, is that ATB time can count for basically 25% of you unlimited time (half of the required >1600T time, which must be half of you total time). Correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise you'd be able to upgrade on ATBs and that almost certainly isnt the intention.

Then theres 46 CFR 11.402 (a) - To qualify for an ocean or near coastal endorsement for vessels of any gross tons, all the required experience must be obtained on vessels of over 200 gross tons. At least one-half of the required experience must be obtained on vessels of over 1600 gross tons.

so you can get 75% of your time, (half of the required 1600T time being on an ATB), 50% on vessels 200-1600T, but you still would be looking for 90 days on a true >1600T oceans vessel.



As far as 1600T Masters, without having a 2/M and taking the limited exam, the other way to do it is this:

46 CFR 11.412 Service requirements for master of ocean or near coastal steam or motor vessels of not more than 1600 gross tons.

The minimum service required to qualify an applicant for an endorsement as master of ocean or near coastal steam or motor vessels of not more than 1600 gross tons is:

(a) Four years total service on ocean or near coastal waters. Service on Great Lakes and inland waters may substitute for up to two years of the required service. Two years of the required service must have been on vessels of over 100 gross tons. Two years of the required service must have been as a master, mate master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels, or equivalent supervisory position while holding a license or MMC endorsement as master, mate, master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels. One year of the service as master, mate, master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels, or equivalent supervisory position must have been on vessels of over 100 gross tons; or,

(b) An applicant holding a license or MMC endorsement as chief mate or second mate of ocean or near coastal steam or motor vessels of over 1600 gross tons is eligible for this endorsement upon completion of a limited examination.

[wafinator]

I'm not sure 100 Ton has this one right. I don't think you can upgrade to 2/M, then crossover with strictly tug time. It sounds like you have zero unlimited seatime. I'm in kind of the same situation as you. Graduated from an academy two and a half years ago. All my time is on tugs. I just got approved to test for my 1600 Ton Master Oceans, but it is the full 7 module test (same as the 3/M Unlimited test we took at school). I would say renew your Third Mate, then send in an app to upgrade to 1600 Master.

Unless "married" means you're on an ATB? then it might be a different story

50thState, just curious how you did this and what you showed for seatime? Searching around the forum I've seen this mentioned elsewhere about "someone that knew someone", just curious to hear it straight from a person that actually did it. Thanks.

[50thState]

50thState, just curious how you did this and what you showed for seatime? Searching around the forum I've seen this mentioned elsewhere about "someone that knew someone", just curious to hear it straight from a person that actually did it. Thanks.

Tried to PM you, but no go, so I'll just go with the thread jack. I just submitted a little over a year of seatime (400 days-ish), all on tugs, all under 200 tons, some Oceans, some near coastal. They didn't like that though. They counted all my seatime from school, so I had enough "overall days" but they said I needed more days as a mate, and more days over 100 tons. I talked to my evaluator on the phone and got her to look at one of my friends applications, as he had just been approved to test with just about identical credentials. About a week later I got the letter saying I was approved to test for 1600 Ton Master Oceans, and have a year to test. So I can't tell you exactly what they saw on his app, or what they missed on mine, but I've got the letter, so I'm good to go.

[Capt. Phoenix]

The thing is, school time is supposed to not be valid after your initial license. So if they counted your "time" from school then you are lucky.

That leads me to the problem I have with 2Ms being allowed to get 1600 ton Master. They only have 360 days as officer to get 2M but anyone else who gets their 1600 ton master has to have 720 days as an officer. I don't get why time on an unlimited vessel is magically worth twice that of any other vessel.

[njtug]

Tried to PM you, but no go, so I'll just go with the thread jack. I just submitted a little over a year of seatime (400 days-ish), all on tugs, all under 200 tons, some Oceans, some near coastal. They didn't like that though. They counted all my seatime from school, so I had enough "overall days" but they said I needed more days as a mate, and more days over 100 tons. I talked to my evaluator on the phone and got her to look at one of my friends applications, as he had just been approved to test with just about identical credentials. About a week later I got the letter saying I was approved to test for 1600 Ton Master Oceans, and have a year to test. So I can't tell you exactly what they saw on his app, or what they missed on mine, but I've got the letter, so I'm good to go.

what is invloved in the testing that you have too do?

[50thState]

The thing is, school time is supposed to not be valid after your initial license. So if they counted your "time" from school then you are lucky.

That leads me to the problem I have with 2Ms being allowed to get 1600 ton Master. They only have 360 days as officer to get 2M but anyone else who gets their 1600 ton master has to have 720 days as an officer. I don't get why time on an unlimited vessel is magically worth twice that of any other vessel.

Whens the last time anything the Coast Guard did made sense?

"what is invloved in the testing that you have too do?"

Check page 81 of the full PDF. 7 Module test, not sure if I have to do flashing light, but I guess I'll find out.

http://uscg.mil/nmc/deck_exams.asp

[jdcavo]

The thing is, school time is supposed to not be valid after your initial license. ....

Tbis isn't entirely correct. For example, the service requirements for Master 500 and Master 1600 call for "total service." In this case, the CFR clearly allows time used for a former license to be used to meet the requirements for the upgrade. 3rd Mate to 2nd Mate is different. The service for 2nd Mate is not expressed as "total service", it calls for time while holding 3rd Mate. This does question the regulatory authority for getting Master 1600 after one year as 3rd Mate. However, this is a long established policy and we are not likely to overturn it unless it comes to us as an appeal, i.e. someone appealling that they should not be allowed to get Master 1600 with one year as an academy graduate 3rd Mate.

[njtug]

Bringing this thread back. I'm still not sure what i need to do and, i am running out of time cause my license expires in may 11. Should i submit all of my sea time and try to upgrade? If so, what license should i ask for? Or should i just submit for renewal and worry about upgrading later.

[cappy208]

At this point, you need to put in your renewal or you will be unemployed soon! Don't wait too long.

You may be able to get a 2nd mate with a tonnage limitation, but you have sort of waited too long to have an involved application. Speed IS of the essence to renew. Just get your license back, and work on the upgrade after.

You could always put in an app for the 2nd mate, and then move it down to just a renewal if they give you a problem.