Legal and Captain Liability Advice

**OICUR12** · July 11th, 2010, 04:54 AM

I know this guy that went to work as a trip pilot for a fly by night out fit that was leasing a boat from the same major carrier that they had a contract with to push barges.

This guy kinda screwed the pooch one night and destroyed the starboard wheel on an old submerged cyprus stump.

The fly by night mom and pop outfit was running a substandard crew who were insubordanent and drug abusers.

The trip pilot cut his losses and got off the boat feeling about as big as tom thumb after his wipeout.

the trip pilot got over it and realized that when it comes to running towboats it is not a matter of "if" but rather "when" and to what degree.

now a year or two later this trip pilot is getting calls from a lawyer that is probably gonna tell the trip pilot that the owner of the company is filing suit against him for the price of replacing the wheel, down time, and the loss of contract with the company who he was going to lose contract with wheel or no wheel.

what is the trip pilot or "captain's" liability in this?

when you operate a commercial vessel for a US commercial shipping company in the US if you have an accident you are covered by the company's insurance except in cases of severe negligence that result in loss of life I am assuming.

the mom and pop joint should have had enought liability insurance to cover any property damage that an operator for their comany may cause yes?

and if they lose a contract and are looking for someone to blame besides theirselves they can not sue the operator for losing a contract can they?

I know this scumbag and he is lookinng to at least squeeze this operator for any money or assets he may have. or at least bankrupt him if possible.

also if this case is filed in Lousiana state court system unless they manage to serve the defendent in Indiana the defendant cant be summoned to Lousiana state court can he?

I mean it has to be a federal case yes?

and even if it were won on a state level unless the defendant has assets in that state the plantiff can not collect a dime?

can they even serve a writ on garnishment written by a LA court in Indiana?

**seadawg** · July 11th, 2010, 05:58 AM

recall a couple of years ago an instance where a company's underwriter for their insurances went after a individual mariner in an effort to recover..believe it ended up in a US Federal District Court in LA..regardless of outcome the legal related expenses alone might be more than a lone mariner's savings can provide for..suggest a "google" or maybe our resident "legal sea eagle" Mr. Gordon would care to contribute here pro bono??

**cappy208** · July 11th, 2010, 09:07 AM

whats the difference between an accident and negligence? a good lawyer!

**OICUR12** · July 13th, 2010, 10:11 PM

Well, i know that from a land based shipping aspect say such as trucking if I wreck a guys rig he can't sue me for wrecking his rig. I was his employee and that was the chance he took employing me. He can't hold my paycheck even if i wrecked his rig.

If i damaged someone elses property they sue him or his insurance company pays off for him and me. They don't go after us as individuals.

That is the purpose of business liability insurance.

If i am drivng joe schmo's rig, he lets the insurance go, and i wreck then he is the one that gets sued not me.

I got named in a suit that was not my fault along with my trucking employer regarding a pile up. I hit no one and no one hit me but they sued anyway. This is America after all.

The suit named me and the trucking company as defendents. The trucking company's insurance paid for our lawyer who represented us both.

Everything came out fine but what if i had been negligent? They could have taken everything i don't even own yet. Thought about sheltering some assets after that one.

I am not going to carry ship pilot level insurance to push a few barges around. It is up to the company to provide enough of an umbrella on any damage i may due whether I am "negligent" in my operating or not.
And there is no way that a company should be able to sue an employee for damages unless he was purposely trying to cause damage.

Like you say it all comes down to legalese and whether they can prove "negligence" or not. But how many of you guys carry liability insurance of your own to operate a vessel?

I know guys that get license insurance but I don't think they offer liability insurance against an employer trying to collect damages on a former employee.

Let's look at it real world.

You own a shop. A guy working for you keeps accidentally damaging your equipment or product. Eventually you have to let him go because he is costing you money.

But do you keep track of all of his screw ups and then sue him 3 years after you fire him when you are down on your luck and trying any scam you can to keep your bills paid?

Seems like a last ditch effort to me and unless he has enough money to bring the case to a federal level he is spinning his wheels.

**Marc0** · July 15th, 2010, 05:48 AM

It depends on whether the trip pilot is an employee or a contractor. He can probably be sued if he's a contractor.

A judgment in a Louisiana court can be enforced in Indiana. They just have to register the judgment with an Indiana court.

**Archimedes** · July 16th, 2010, 04:18 AM

Are you looking for legal advice (internet message boards are THE best place for that) or are you looking for an argument?

**OICUR12** · July 17th, 2010, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Marc0

It depends on whether the trip pilot is an employee or a contractor. He can probably be sued if he's a contractor.

A judgment in a Louisiana court can be enforced in Indiana. They just have to register the judgment with an Indiana court.

you would then first have to be served in your home state and then be required to attend court in another state?

**OICUR12** · July 17th, 2010, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Archimedes

Are you looking for legal advice (internet message boards are THE best place for that) or are you looking for an argument?

What the hell are you talking about?

This is an internet message board.

No i am not looking for a fight. I am looking for free legal advice from a non lamen on a specific matter.

**Marc0** · July 20th, 2010, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by OICUR12

you would then first have to be served in your home state and then be required to attend court in another state?

No. If you're in Indiana and the other guy already has a money judgment against you from Louisiana, he can go to a court in Indiana and register the judgment, or file an application for enforcement, or whatever they call it in Indiana. The rules of procedure in Indiana may require that you are served with notice that this is going on.

You should find a lawyer. Don't rely on advice from the internet.

**Kennebec Captain** · July 20th, 2010, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Marc0

You should find a lawyer. Don't rely on advice from the internet.

I am not sure if it is advisable to rely upon this advice or not

**OICUR12** · July 27th, 2010, 04:40 AM

Trust me i am smart enough to get a lawyer when a lawyer is warranted.

First the plantiff has to get a judgement and the only way for that to happen is for the defendent to be served and not show up to court.

The defendent has not been served and getting him served in his home state would not be cheap.

Then if judgement was rendered for the plantiff i guess maybe it would be possible to collect one state's judgement in another state but it seems like by the time you went through all of this it would just be easier to take it to a federal level.

And even if you could successfully hold a wheelman finacially responsible for his occasional screw ups are you really gonna collect multi thousand dollar judgements against the average working schmuck on the boat?

He is just like everybody else. One paycheck away from ruin.

You can't squeeze blood out of turnip, you can't garnish a merchant seaman's wages for a civil judgement, and bankruptcy is an easy out. So why bother sueing a wheelman?

If sueing a wheelman for his screw ups was common practice there would be a whole lot more wheelmen with liability insurance. and it would be unaffordable for most. day rates would have to be through the roof to afford it.

it would be almost like malpractice insurance for a doctor.

if you run smaller tonnage vessels it is not a matter of if but when you screw something up. it is just to what degree that can make or break your reputation. you are only as good as your last bad performance with most companies.

Instead of sueing the wheelman after the fact spend a little more money up front and do a good background and reference check. Then make sure that your wheelman is well posted in the area he is operating in. That is about all you can do as a company besides carry good insurance in case your "well posted" wheelman screws the pooch on a bad day.

**Archimedes** · July 28th, 2010, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by OICUR12

Trust me i am smart enough to get a lawyer when a lawyer is warranted.

First the plantiff has to get a judgement and the only way for that to happen is for the defendent to be served and not show up to court.

The defendent has not been served and getting him served in his home state would not be cheap.

Then if judgement was rendered for the plantiff i guess maybe it would be possible to collect one state's judgement in another state but it seems like by the time you went through all of this it would just be easier to take it to a federal level.

And even if you could successfully hold a wheelman finacially responsible for his occasional screw ups are you really gonna collect multi thousand dollar judgements against the average working schmuck on the boat?

He is just like everybody else. One paycheck away from ruin.

You can't squeeze blood out of turnip, you can't garnish a merchant seaman's wages for a civil judgement, and bankruptcy is an easy out. So why bother sueing a wheelman?

If sueing a wheelman for his screw ups was common practice there would be a whole lot more wheelmen with liability insurance. and it would be unaffordable for most. day rates would have to be through the roof to afford it.

it would be almost like malpractice insurance for a doctor.

if you run smaller tonnage vessels it is not a matter of if but when you screw something up. it is just to what degree that can make or break your reputation. you are only as good as your last bad performance with most companies.

Instead of sueing the wheelman after the fact spend a little more money up front and do a good background and reference check. Then make sure that your wheelman is well posted in the area he is operating in. That is about all you can do as a company besides carry good insurance in case your "well posted" wheelman screws the pooch on a bad day.

Since you have all the answers, why are you asking for advice?