500-1600 ton Master NC to Third Mate, Why is it so Hard??

[CaptHH]

This question is mainly directed at Mr. Cavo but anyone that has any advice would be helpful.

Right now i am in a battle with the USCG. I have a 1600ton master upgrading to third mate. Why? To get my Unlimited Masters. They are telling me that i cannot go from master to mate b/c i do not have OICNW on my license ( STCW II/1) but I have OICNW (STCW II/2) which is for chief mates and masters. They say that a Mate can go to Mate but a Master cannot go, also because I have only had a masters license and never a mate that i would not have the OICNW (STCW II/1).

They want me to take 18,000 dollars worth of classes that i have already tested on just to get my third mate. I have a 1600 ton master which is higher than a third.

What's the deal???

[Jeffrox]

The guys going thru this will give ya the straight dope, I'll just say that this subject has been discussed ad naseum on the forum, do a search on here. It's probably has to do with you getting your Masters license before any schools were required and now they are requried and the Grandfather deal is dead. On an unlimited tonnage vessel, a 1600 Master is actually junior to a 3rd Mate BTW. Lots feel your pain with regards to the dollars for school issue, me included. Welcome to the club.

[PMC]

Maybe the Coast Guard will change the rules just for you! Perhaps the NMC can create a create a new upgrade category for all of those captains in your situation. It could be called : "1600-ton masters who are good guys and know what they are doing".

Short of that, you could take the classes like the rest of us.

[CaptHH]

Sarcasm dually noted! All I am saying is that if the checklists does not make sense and the policy letters do not pertain to me. The Government reviewer has been at this for a week and only answers my questions with the same info. The NMC is lost. If they knew anything else besides a damn checklist and give me some concrete info I would be better. The fact that all they do is go off this checklist and do not review the STCW codes and CFR's themselves pisses me off. All the classes have been taken that are required of me by STCW standards and have also taken the 2nd Mate exam at the Coast Guard. Now they want a mate OICNW? Don't you think the OICNW for Masters and Chief Mates would be good enough??

None of this makes sense!!!! Just Saying.

[Shellback]

Capt HH,
This is a little above my paygrade but I will offer this.
I looked at the checklist for 1600 Ton master NC..The requirements for that license don't require many of the STCW classes that are required for a mates license..This has been a loophole that the NMC is going to be closing soon..In order to get your 3rd mate lic. They will have to be completed..

[Shellback]

On an unlimited tonnage vessel, a 1600 Master is actually junior to a 3rd Mate BTW. .

Jeffrox, the limited license would hold no value on an unlimited vessel, right? Unless the holder also had OS/AB or Wiper/Oiler then they could still sail...right?

[New3M]

Doesn't a 1600 ton master automatically have an AB? It's at least got to be worth an OS/wiper endorsement.

[Shellback]

Doesn't a 1600 ton master automatically have an AB? It's at least got to be worth an OS/wiper endorsement.

Good question, here is the checklist and it says (exams) required under the AB requirement so I would say no not automatic but is a requirement..

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/m...1600.pdf&B1=GO!

[Steamer]

I have a 1600 ton master which is higher than a third.

That statement alone shows you have a long way to go ...

[JP]

I was in the same situation as you. I had actually taken all of the required classes but before the STCW was invented so even tho the classes I took were USCG approved and were much more in depth than the ones required now under STCW- too bad, so sad. I already had a 1600 ton master oceans license but had to go back to sail as AB to get sea time on unlimited vessels to sit for 3rd mate, then 2nd mate and then take all those same classes over again to be allowed to sit for chief mate. Cost me an extra 20 years and $50,000 just for classes. Not counting lost wages over all that time I could have been chief mate or master unlimited if the USCG had followed thier own rules and notified the public in something other than the federal register that these huge changes were coming down the pike! Even the REC had no idea about STCW 95 only 2 months before the deadline to enforce the thing!!!
Also, 1600 ton master is worthless on anything larger than 1600 ton, can;t even sail as AB unless you have the AB ticket- I really thought AB tests were harder than the 1600 ton masters test except for the celestial part! Maybe that was just because I had a few years of experience when I took the masters test and had already taken AB and 1000 GT mates tests!
As for things the USCG does that don;t make sense, how about this: Sailing as 1600 ton master does not count as chief mate time! Unless you are on a vessel with a COI specifically calling for a "chief mate", you can not apply for your unlimited masters license. I say that chief mate is defined as being next in line to the master so sailing master should at least count for something but there is absolutely nothing I can find in the rules about using the time sailing as master 1600 GT for chief mate time towards upgrading to master unlimited.
Good luck with your argument, I think the USCG should take a look at thier rules and be more flexible too but thats supposedly why they moved to WV- so they wouldn;t be!!

[mke039]

Hmmmm. This is all news to me. Can't you just automaticly upgrade from 1600 Master to 3rd Mate unlimited with a year of time as Master of vessels over 200 ton?
I was told I just needed Flashing Light with my seatime.....

[seadawg]

CaptHH

in order to be "grandfathered" and have the OICNW/II-1 endorsed on my MMC without the required courses it was neccessary to take the issue with the NMC all the way thru the appeal process..thus making it easier for those of similar circumstance following in my "wake"..how this equates in relation to the master 1600tn to 3m upgrade who knows..someone besides myself needs to test those "waters"??

this forum thread this may be of interest to some? may be of interest ..you may fit this criteria..if so run with it..as for myself I am done with dealing with the NMC for the present..feel free to pm me with any questions??

[cappy208]

To make it pretty simple, go to the NMC website, and look on the left side of the page. Look up the exam topics there for licenses. You will find a graph of ALL the exam modules required to sit for each and every license in a tabular form. Looking at the 1600 column (5th one over) you will see alot of X's in the column. However if you look at the 3rd mate you will find some more X's. Note that not each column has the same topics X'ed off. But you will see X's on the 1600 that are NOT on the 3rd's. So you can see that some things on a 1600 ton ARE covered on a 3rds, not everything is the same.

Unfortunately Uncle Sams Confused Group does give exams 'piecemeal' they only give out complete exams. I wish they just gave the modules you need to go UP, but they don't.

On an interesting side note, when upgrading from Mate to Master 1600 oceans, the celestial requirements change. If a Mate had oceans and was going to upgrade to Master they would have to take another module of celestial which contains two (2) more questions than a Mates license. You would think (hope) the CG would simply give the two extra questions and let you go on your way.... but Nooooo! You would have to test out on the WHOLE thing again! Luckily, the courses offered now are ALL 'masters' level courses. But it can be a pain.

[mercury ballistic]

I am going the other way, 2nd mate unlimited to 1600 ton master. Anyone have any idea what stuff to focus on for the 011X module? It says Deck Gen, Nav Gen and Deck Safety, but that encompasses a lot of material. Sorry OP for your plight.

[jdcavo]

See 46 CFR table 11.910-2. The exam covers everything in which there is an "X" for Master 1600 but not for 3rd Mate or 2nd Mate.

[Jeffrox]

I am going the other way, 2nd mate unlimited to 1600 ton master. Anyone have any idea what stuff to focus on for the 011X module? It says Deck Gen, Nav Gen and Deck Safety, but that encompasses a lot of material. Sorry OP for your plight.

It's mostly what you would expect to see in those catagories, nothing too tricky. Mine had a bunce of question about operating in ice and types of ice. It's only 70 questions, if you blow it the 1st time you're sure to pass it the 2nd time after having gotten a look at it already.

[cappy208]

OOPs. That shouldv'e said The CG DOESN'T give out exams piecemeal. sorry, typos are my life!

[CaptHH]

Mr. Cavo,

What is your take on this, I am currently in formal consideration.

Thanks
CaptHH

[jdcavo]

Mr. Cavo, What is your take on this, I am currently in formal consideration...

I assume you mean "reconsideration" and thus I can't get involved, your nest recourse after reconsideration is an appeal, and that will come to my office for review. So I have to abstain from responding as there is a good chance I will see an appeal on this.

[CaptHH]

Hello All,

Just wanted to let everyone know that I just received my Approval to Test letter from the USCG. After 7 months, 2 evaluators, appeals and formal reconsideration's I finally have a means to an end. Thanks to all that had positive advice. I just want to say that knowing STCW, CFR's and not giving up is the key. Anyone that reads this and wants to apply for this upgrade from 1600 ton master to 3rd mate, DON'T GIVE UP. Coast Guard is changing their rules and minds faster than you can blink, also if you are a hawespiper like myself GET IT NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN. I feel that in the near future this license will not be attainable by Hawespipers. At lease that's what it looks like.