Challenging Navy sea time

[Shellback]

Has anyone successfully challenged, the 60 % rule ? If so what additional information did they require? The items listed in the MSM are a little vague and useless in my mind..



From the MSM..

1. Official description of duties statement...

Does this mean the ships duties,or the applicants duties while on board..? The duties of personnel, for ratings that are allowed seatime, are pretty clear already and I can't see where they would lend any extra consideration towards a higher percentage of sea time...Unless there is a description of duties statement for ships.I have never heard of this ,has anyone else?

2. Letters of Qualification..

Again, letters of qualification say nothing about underway time..


3.Service Record Entries..

Now this would be a great help if it listed the actual underway time but it doesn't..It does list the date of joining the crew and date of departure though,just as a sea transcript does..

4.or letters from former supervisors or Commanding Officers

My question here is, that if I could find my old C.O. or former navigator and had them write a letter stating that some 20 years ago,this particular ship well exceeded, 60 % of it's time, underway (which it did) that would be acceptable documentation? That seems like quite a stretch to me, for the CG to accept someones recollections..

[Jeffrox]

You can request copies of the Ships Deck Logs, http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/nhcorg15.htm

Good luck.

[Shellback]

You can request copies of the Ships Deck Logs, http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/nhcorg15.htm

Good luck.

No way? In electronic form? I'll have to look at the site, thanks Jeff

[Ordinaryseaman]

Man- Jeff knows his stuff- thanks

[Shellback]

Well it is true but it will cost you a little... .15 a page for paper logs to be scanned on a CD rom and .25 a page for microfische... They said on the website that the average log is 120 pages and some can run as high as 400 pages in a single month..I was the one who mailed ours in to the proper authorities and every one of them resembled a medium sized cities, phone book...I need about 34 months worth...looks like a little over 600.00...based on their average..

[Shellback]

Man- Jeff knows his stuff- thanks

Thats because he sits on the beach all day, while scantily clad oriental girls pamper and fullfill his every need, fantasy or desire...This gives him something to do..

I am so jealous...

[Ordinaryseaman]

Thats because he sits on the beach all day, while scantily clad oriental girls pamper and fullfill his every need, fantasy or desire...This gives him something to do..

I am so jealous...

Aren't you sitting on the beach right now?

[Shellback]

Aren't you sitting on the beach right now?

Yes, I am but this is different, my wife is bundled up ( it's winter here), she doesn't care what my needs or desires are, and most certainly she isn't the slightest bit interested in my fantasies...
I've been home for almost 2 weeks,it's time for me to go back to the boat...

[Azimuth]

The best thing you can submit, in addition to the Statement of Sea Service is a copy of every single eval/fitrep you received. It works best if you provide 100% continuity for your entire time in the service. In addition to that I submitted a signed copy of my SWO PQS and Coxwain PQS books. I also included copies of every certificate, award, designation letter, etc... (basically my service record and then some). By the time I gathered everything together my application package was over 500 pages. My thinking was that I would overwhelm them with so much documentation they would do just about anything to avoid digging thru all that paperwork and give me what I was asking for. I think they must have dug thru the paperwork because it took 6 months to evaluate my application but I wound up getting over 6 years of seatime with 8.5 years of Naval service, 2 of which were schools and shore duty.

[Jeffrox]

A letter from a Naval Officer helped me get some suface seatime for much of the seatime on my first submarine. That sub was deisel-electric and we surfaced transited a lot rather than snorkel. By the time I needed that letter the officer that wrote it had advanced to a 2 Star Rear Admiral which seemed to pull alot of weight with the USCG LCDR that I was lobbying for the seatime, especially when he received his own copy of it through the mail from the Pentagon. (he asked and I delivered!)

Actually I don't understand why the USCG disparages submarine seatime; the three dimensional navigation practiced on submarines is more, not less, demanding than surfaced navigation. There is nothing in a days work in navigation practiced by other mariners that isn't learned and practiced by submarine navigators and practiced to higher degrees of accuracy on a very deep draft vessel. Ok, I'm climing down from the soapbox now......

[mike24]

Just found out about the this site! Wish I had know prior to my Ret. Could have saved me some headaches! I was under the impression that we were credited with 50% seatime and 60% tonnage for deck rates.
Depending on when you got out of the service, you could request a copy of your service record. Contact the Records Divsion in either Millington or St Louis. That with the copies of your eval's/Letters of Desig/Pg 2's etc. might help.

[RDEagan]

Ok, I'm climing down from the soapbox now......

LOL.. that HAS to be a different soap box than that Bolinger dude used over in the Mercy Ships thread. At least your dissertation was enlightening

Ryan

[Steamer]

Actually I don't understand why the USCG disparages submarine seatime ...

I guess it depends on who evaluates the time. I had a boatload of civilian submarine time and they credited all the time at sea, surfaced or submerged, as seatime but declared it 50/50 engine and deck.

When I was working on my engineering license they kept giving me deck time. When I was working on my deck license, they kept giving me engine time. They are happy to credit whichever you need least.

Go figure ...

[Shellback]

Jeff, whenever I come across that section in the MSM, I shake my head, I don't understand the logic..or lack there of..The navigational duties on a sub were so much more inclusive than on a surface ship..

I'm glad you mentioned the letter..I have been looking at that angle as well...I found my old Navigator last year, he is still in and is a Captain, also a Commodore of the Navys newest Destroyer Squadron..Which leads me to another question..

According to the MSM, Petty Officers, who were DWO's, Deck Watch Officers would be credited mate time...The term DWO, must be a CG term as I know we never used it on my ship..And I don't see it anywhere in my service record..Does anyone know if this is the equivelant as Quartermaster of the Watch, or Petty Officer of the Watch? Or is this reffering to CG vessels, that have enlisted personnel that stand OOD and JOOD watches?

A letter from a Naval Officer helped me get some suface seatime for much of the seatime on my first submarine. That sub was deisel-electric and we surfaced transited a lot rather than snorkel. By the time I needed that letter the officer that wrote it had advanced to a 2 Star Rear Admiral which seemed to pull alot of weight with the USCG LCDR that I was lobbying for the seatime, especially when he received his own copy of it through the mail from the Pentagon. (he asked and I delivered!)

Actually I don't understand why the USCG disparages submarine seatime; the three dimensional navigation practiced on submarines is more, not less, demanding than surfaced navigation. There is nothing in a days work in navigation practiced by other mariners that isn't learned and practiced by submarine navigators and practiced to higher degrees of accuracy on a very deep draft vessel. Ok, I'm climing down from the soapbox now......

[Shellback]

Just found out about the this site! Wish I had know prior to my Ret. Could have saved me some headaches! I was under the impression that we were credited with 50% seatime and 60% tonnage for deck rates.
Depending on when you got out of the service, you could request a copy of your service record. Contact the Records Divsion in either Millington or St Louis. That with the copies of your eval's/Letters of Desig/Pg 2's etc. might help.

Thanks Mike, welcome aboard...
I think Azimuth was eluding to this as well...I have my record and the only thing that really goes towards the sea time, is the sea transcript but it's just a start date and a stop date..Nothing about the particulars...Like how many actual sea days..That would have been a big help...

And you are correct about this site...It is amazing ..

[Robert]

Jeff, whenever I come across that section in the MSM, I shake my head, I don't understand the logic..or lack there of..The navigational duties on a sub were so much more inclusive than on a surface ship..

I'm glad you mentioned the letter..I have been looking at that angle as well...I found my old Navigator last year, he is still in and is a Captain, also a Commodore of the Navys newest Destroyer Squadron..Which leads me to another question..

According to the MSM, Petty Officers, who were DWO's, Deck Watch Officers would be credited mate time...The term DWO, must be a CG term as I know we never used it on my ship..And I don't see it anywhere in my service record..Does anyone know if this is the equivelant as Quartermaster of the Watch, or Petty Officer of the Watch? Or is this reffering to CG vessels, that have enlisted personnel that stand OOD and JOOD watches?

DWO is a term used by the Coast Guard and Navy for an officer (and sometimes enlisted) qualified to stand watches while the vessel is underway (I would guess similar to OICNW). A Quartermaster of the Watch (QMOW) is the person responsible for laying down fixes, maintaining the underway logs. The Petty Officer of the Watch is usually an inport watch designation but can also be used on smaller vessels to indicate the enlisted person in charge of the underway watch. OOD and JOOD are terms used for the watch both inport and underway. The OOD is a qualified DWO actually standing a watch. Not sure if they will be more confusing or helpful, I'm hoping for the latter.

[Shellback]

Thank you Robert, I agree with your definitions..I still don't recall every hearing the term of DWO on my particular ship, and as a senior QM I would have had ample opportunity to have heard it...I know that we were taught to log in the oncoming watch as OOD and JOOD...

..I was hoping that the QMOW would qualify for DWO time...As the OOD's assistant and the one responsible for the keeping of a navigational watch, recommending what courses and speeds that the ship needed to make, to be safe and to complete it's mission and objective, that it might count towards some time..

I appreciate all of the responses to these questions, thank you all...

DWO is a term used by the Coast Guard and Navy for an officer (and sometimes enlisted) qualified to stand watches while the vessel is underway (I would guess similar to OICNW). A Quartermaster of the Watch (QMOW) is the person responsible for laying down fixes, maintaining the underway logs. The Petty Officer of the Watch is usually an inport watch designation but can also be used on smaller vessels to indicate the enlisted person in charge of the underway watch. OOD and JOOD are terms used for the watch both inport and underway. The OOD is a qualified DWO actually standing a watch. Not sure if they will be more confusing or helpful, I'm hoping for the latter.

[Robert]

Thank you Robert, I agree with your definitions..I still don't recall every hearing the term of DWO on my particular ship, and as a senior QM I would have had ample opportunity to have heard it...I know that we were taught to log in the oncoming watch as OOD and JOOD...

..I was hoping that the QMOW would qualify for DWO time...As the OOD's assistant and the one responsible for the keeping of a navigational watch, recommending what courses and speeds that the ship needed to make, to be safe and to complete it's mission and objective, that it might count towards some time..

I appreciate all of the responses to these questions, thank you all...

Since the MSM specifically qualifies time as a JOOD as only equivalent to AB time, I think it will be a hard sell to get QMOW time to qualify as DWO time. But you never know until you ask!

[Shellback]

I saw that, I sure disagree with it too, but that isn't a big surprise coming from me...I also liked the passage at the bottom of that page, 2-3, it says that these are just guidlines...That tells me that we have room to negotiate...

Since the MSM specifically qualifies time as a JOOD as only equivalent to AB time, I think it will be a hard sell to get QMOW time to qualify as DWO time. But you never know until you ask!

[Robert]

I saw that, I sure disagree with it too, but that isn't a big surprise coming from me...I also liked the passage at the bottom of that page, 2-3, it says that these are just guidlines...That tells me that we have room to negotiate...

Well good luck. I would really be interested in hearing how it finally works out for you too.