CHief Mate Seatime

**anchorman** · August 2nd, 2008, 09:20 AM

Ok, So an unlimited master just told me (this crap)....that you only get "Chief Mate" sea-time "if" the actual COI has a Chief Mate on it?????? Um, OK??? , but you get 1/2 for each day up to 6 months. I think this person is confused with a chief mate serving as a 2nd, or 3rd. What is the significants of having "chief mate" on the COI. I've seen SubCapter I vessels that only say 1-Master, 3-Mates.....So none of the mates can ever be master and the master must be immortal, I guess.

JP · August 2nd, 2008, 10:20 AM

I thought nowadays you got the upgrade to master as long as you sailed unlimited while 'holding' the chief mates license for a year.

**anchorman** · August 2nd, 2008, 10:45 AM

I think serving in the capacity as Chief Mate is the most important factor, but how this is related to wording on the C.O.I - I have no idea. "While Holding"- gives you a 2 for 1 , up to 6 months.....if a OICNW 2nd , or 3rd. At the end of the day, you have to be in the capacity for a minimum of 6 months as Chief Mate. Hopefully, Mr.Cavo will shed some monday morning.

**Jeffrox** · August 2nd, 2008, 01:26 PM

I believe the guy is right. If your COI sez 1 master and 3 mates and you serve on there you will never get your 6 months needed to sail as a "Chief Mate" even if you're the Capt. You may have a mate you "call" chief mate but it's just title. I sailed on a unlimited tonnage vessel and our Chief mate came on there for that express purpose, to get 6 months onboard (2 hitches) filling the COI directed Chief Mate billet. Once he had that time we never saw him again. Call the Govt Service division and get on the Palmer for 6 months!

**El Capitan** · August 2nd, 2008, 07:40 PM

Anchorman - In the past it's been awful dependent on the interpretation given by each individual REC. Now that things are centralized at NMC (with the exception of Boston, I believe), it's hard to say how things will go. As Jeffrox said, the COI for each vessel distinctly spells out the positions required for the intended service; in this case it could be Master, and C/M, 2/M, 3/M -or- Master and 3 Licensed Mates. You know the subtle differences so I won't get into it, but in my recent experience I've had the REC check the COI for several things, including manning. And, there is a distinct difference, hence the reasoning. That being said, give me a call when you have half a second and I'll run something by you. You know the rest of the CFR lingo, we'll see what Mr. Cavo has to add.

**anchorman** · August 3rd, 2008, 02:43 AM

Jeffrox, I think you lost me on the part about..."even if you're the captain". I'm talking about going from Chief Mate......to Master. It would be kinda hard to be the captain since you don't YET have the license. edited to add: The Palmer??? Don't think so. I don't do cold or research. My specialty and career choice has always been anchor vessels and towing. El Capitan, Call you? How? I don't yodle. There are unlimited vessels, mostly subchapter I and the C.O.I says 1-master, 3- mates. All of these mariners must be unlimited to crew these vessels. It doesn't make sense to me that the 3-mates can only get as far as chief mate, but never master, because the C.O.I doesn't specify "Chief Mate". I guess if the current master moves on, the mates can train the new one...LOL. This is an interesting conversation, because the OSV industry (as you know) is building vessels which by current regulation will be unlimited tonnage. A NOSAC sub-committee will be recommending career guidance for OSV licensing (at the request of the Coast Guard) in November to preceed these newbuilds. So even if all of the seasoned and experienced OSV mariners decided to get unlimited licenses, they could never upgrade. This could be the point for industry to point out (and I'm sure it will be). The newer larger OSVs are so similar to that of the previous generation, that current large OSV mariners are already fully trained. I believe this will be recognized as it was in 1997, but I never realized that the industry or the mariner didn't even have the choice to upgrade all the way to unlimited master on OSVs over 1,600tons to begin with......all the more reason. ....unless of course, I was given bad information.

**jdcavo** · August 4th, 2008, 12:51 AM

The info you got was mostly correct, except for the COI part. I'm not sure we put Chief Mate on COIs. You need 6 months of the one year requirement as Chief Mate. The rest can be 2nd Mate time while holding a Chief Mate license, it's counted at 1 day credit for each 2 days on the vessel. Since the vessels are over 1600 GRT, you'll need certificates of discharge (except for MSC which is not required to issue them). To be considered as Chief Mate, the time needs to be on vessels over 1600 GRT, and be on a 3-watch system (3 Mates and Captain). There can only be one "Chief Mate" so even if the vessel carries more than one "First Officer" only one is the Chief Mate. By regulation,. the Chief Mate is the officer who would assume the duties of Master if the Master were incapacitated. There have been some issues in the past with MSC ships that had two first officers, and with academy training ships that routinely discharged everyone at the level of the license they held, sometimes there were as many as eight Chief Mates on a single cruise. The requirement for 6 months Chief Mate time started in 1988, I learned of it when I showed at at an REC with 2 months Chief Mate time and 20 months 2nd Mate time thinking I was ready to sit for Master. James D. Cavo Chief, Mariner Training & Assessment Division USCG National Maritime Center

**anchorman** · August 4th, 2008, 01:13 AM

Thanks. I figured that he was partly correct, but the main thing was the C.O.I. part. Some vessels do specify C/M, 2nd,3rd, but Edison Chouest only has one which is the icebreaker. We also have several vessels classed as "Cargo and Misc." Subchapter I where the C.O.I says 1-Master, 3-Mates So, If I hold a Chief Mate license and work in that capacity on a 5,996 ton (ITC) OSV, I can't get (ALL) the Chief Mate sea-time needed to advance to Master because the COI only requires 1-Master and 2-Mates within a two-watch system. Is this right? Also, ABS consulting said they're in the process of getting their VSO class retroactively approved. I guess we're waiting on you..LOL

**jdcavo** · August 4th, 2008, 01:31 AM

Among the reasons that time on a "large" OSV can't be used is that it isn't a 3-watch vessel, as well as the type of licvense thaty can fill the COI requirements. If the COI can be met with something other than an unlimited license (not specific to a type of vessel), than it generally can't be used to advance to Master AGT. There's also the whole sticky issue of OSVs being limited by regulation to less than what the "large" OSVs are. The "large" OSV or "tonnage extension" programs are limited to OSVs. In terms of advancing career outside of OSVs, they are something of a dead end (perhaps by design of the program proponents...) James D. Cavo Chief, Mariner Training & Assessment Division USCG National Maritime Center

**anchorman** · August 4th, 2008, 01:46 AM

........and so Anchorman learns of this after $25,000+ in STCW classes and passing the Chief Mate exam, but its funny (not really) how i progressed through 3rd and 2nd on OSVs. I guess I'm stuck. Thanks.

**anchorman** · August 4th, 2008, 02:53 AM

There is this also..... The Laney Chouest, the largest OSV in the gulf at 5,996 tons (ITC) requires 1-Master and 3-Mates on the COI and operates on the 3 watch system......but is an OSV. How would this work as far as seatime on an unlimited Chief Mate license while in that capacity?

**jdcavo** · August 4th, 2008, 04:41 AM

It's an OSV. So you're in the same predicament as the ATB guys. The owners want the benefits of a vessel being considered smaller than it really is. There's trade-offs, and you're on the bad side of one of them. However, NMC recently let a couple of licenses go out without exams, and that's a bigger and more obvious mistake than knowing "_______ Chouest" = OSV. James D. Cavo Chief, Mariner Training & Assessment Division USCG National Maritime Center

**stevewhite** · August 4th, 2008, 07:51 AM

When applying sea time for an upgrade from Chief Mate to Master. There is no mention of a 3 watch system or OSV restriction. This includes CFR 46 10.205, 10.207,10.401,10.402,10.404. It is clear if you have served as Chief Mate as defined under CFR 46 10.104 then you qualify for an upgrade to Master. In the USCG manual on applying sea time it states that unless the COI specifies a mates position a mate holding any mates license with the appropriate tonnage may serve in any mate position.

Meaning if your COI does not specify Chief mate, 2nd mate, or 3rd mate.

**jdcavo** · August 4th, 2008, 10:56 AM

I'm just a lawyer who's been to sea, so I'll defer to the sea lawyer.

**El Capitan** · August 4th, 2008, 08:16 PM

Maybe we've done with this, just as we have with the energy situation. We pretended that the day it would be a problem would never come, but now that is here on our doorstep, we realize all the temporary adjustments/patches we've made along the way aren't holding. Now, exacerbated with a skilled mariner shortage, we've found ourselves out on a limb sawing on the wrong side.

**anchorman** · August 5th, 2008, 03:24 AM

El Capitan, I know that you have your masters ticket and I also know that you're working on an OSV.............so, I guess you're not getting any recency of service either. Looks like you need an OSV license..LOL.

**stevewhite** · August 5th, 2008, 03:51 AM

I guess companies like Otto Candies and Chouest can stop spending money recruiting new Academy gradeuates. As soon as they find out its a dead end job they would be stupid to work offshore on OSV's.

**anchorman** · August 5th, 2008, 05:53 AM

"I guess companies like Otto Candies and Chouest can stop spending money
recruiting new Academy gradeuates. As soon as they find out its a dead
end job they would be stupid to work offshore on OSV's." Actually, you can go all the way to Chief Mate, but once you're at Chief Mate, you can only get 2 for 1 days of seatime for the first 6 months and not get the remaining 6 month needed to become an unlimited Master on an large OSV. BUT, The NMC just told me that you DO get recency of service on your Unlimited Maser to keep it from expiring on an OSV. So, essentially, you get seatime everywhere except 6 months of the required Chief Mate time to become Master. BUT, even an OSV guy can shed his "OSV trade restriction", by virtue of service on an "OSV" by policy letter 7-00........just in-case you were getting confused at this point. so,....it's not a dead-end,.......it's just freaking RETARDED. The fact that >3,000 ton (ITC) is considered unlimited time by STCW doesn't apply at the USCG.