Problems with MM&P

[JGWentworth]

I am throwing this out there to see if anyone has been having the same problem as I have lately. Trying to join MMP hall out of SF and have a 3/M license from Cal Maritime. Lady at MMP hall is not letting me work until I provide for her a BST cert and RADAR cert - BOTH of which are not issued by maritime academies since the curriculum at colleges expose you to the skills/knowledge required by those certifications over a period of time in different classes. For example, BST is a combination of certain classes like Industrial Equipment and Safety, Ship Operations (maintenance), and Freshman training cruise. RADAR cert is done the same way. So we aren't issued a specific certificate for, lets say a 30 hour course on basic safety training or something like that since there is no single particular class for this at the academy. The curriculum at maritime academies is obviously approved by the coast guard but why isn't MM&P recognizing this? Is the hall here in the bay area the only hall that is making this such a laborious process?!

[abergeron]

CMA was supposed to provide you with training certificates and a full training log book along with your diploma when you graduated that include both those certificates if they did not you seriously need to go there and get them.

[RichMadden90]

The union is responsible for ensuring you have all the documentation required before sending you out to the ship. BST or Basic Safety Training is the introductory STCW course that all are required to take. You can't have an STCW without it. While having your STCW should be evidence of having the course, you should carry ALL your course certificates - get a 3 ring binder. As for your radar observer certification - as the expiration date is no longer on your license (or won't be when you renew) you are required to carry the evidence of current training (i.e. the certificate) with you. Neither of these requests prior to picking a job is unreasonable. If Cal Maritime has not issued you these certificates, they are seriously remiss. MMP halls all have their own flavor, but all will require you to have your documentation in order. If they send you out to a ship without everything being in order, you can be a liability when the captain sends you packing (never looks good to the company) or during a port state inspection.

[JGWentworth]

This is really strange because the coast guard is now issuing license in these passport size booklets that are suppose to contain everything we need so we don't have to carry around all these certificates. No one in my class was issued these certificates, yet my former classmates who are sailing out of the Long Beach hall for example have had no problems with their certs being out of order. Which leads me back to my original question, why the SF hall is making it so difficult?! I have already been back to CMA but to no avail, the academy does not print certificates. It seems like there is a serious missing link between what the Coast Guard and academies are printing as far as certificates.

[RichMadden90]

Hello.......McFly........(knocking on forehead)

Y-o-u n-e-e-d t-h-e c-e-r-t-i-f-i-c-a-t-e-s.

Carry them - carry a scan of them on your thumb drive and/or computer, as well. Beyond what is required bu USCG, you will start getting into what is required by the individual companies in terms of training. The MMP hall will have a nice matrix to fill you in on what school you need to take next.

The Coast Guard MMC is just one of the documents you need to carry. A prime example is the HAZMAT cert I had to scramble to get in order to get my most recent ship.

[anchorman]

Present them with the Coast Guard approval letter......
Not sure, but the continuing education department may print up the certificates considering your problem, but they may not be able to. It's worth asking though.

CMA...
Any cadet successfully completing the entire four-year Third Mate Program with the QMED Option and presenting your Training Record Book with all required assessments and entries completed will: 1) Satisfy the training requirements of 46 CFR 10.901(c)(1) and Table A-II/1 of the STCW Code for Officer in Charge of a Navigational Watch on Ships of 500 Gross Tonnage or More; AND
2) Satisfy the training requirements of 46 CFR 12.05-3(c) and Table A-II/4 of the STCW Code for Rating Forming Part of a Navigational Watch; AND 3) Satisfy the training requirements of 46 CFR 12.15-3(e) and Table A-III/4 of the STCW Code, for Rating Forming Part of an Engineering Watch RESTRICTED to motor propulsion; AND
4) Satisfy the Basic and Advanced Fire Fighting training requirements of 46 CFR 10.205(g) and 10.401(g)(1) for a license; the Advanced Fire Fighting training requirements of Section A-VI/3 and Table A-VI/3 of the STCW Code; and the Fire Fighting training requirements of 46 CFR 13.113(d)(2)(i)(A), 13.113(e)(1)(i)(A) or (B), 13.201(e), 13.301(e), 13.401(e) or 13.501(e) for any tankerman endorsement; AND
5) Satisfy the First Aid & CPR training requirements of 46 CFR 10.205(h)(1)(ii) and (h)(2)(iii); AND 6) Satisfy the sea service requirements of 10.407(a)(2)(iv) and may examine for a license as Third Mate of Ocean Steam or Motor Vessels of Any Gross Tons; AND
7) Satisfy the service requirements of 46 CFR 12.05-7(b)(1) and the written and practical examination requirements of 46 CFR 12.05-9 and may be issued an endorsement as Able Seaman - Unlimited; AND 8) Satisfy the service requirements of 46 CFR 12.15-7 for any QMED endorsement provided that they have acquired at least 90 days of engine sea service and may examine for all Qualified Member of the Engine Department endorsements; AND
9) Satisfy the Bridge Team Work training requirements of 46 CFR 10.205(o); AND 10) Satisfy the ARPA training requirements of 46 CFR 10.205(m)(1); AND 11) Satisfy the GMDSS training requirements of 46 CFR 10.205(n) and Table A-IV/2 of the STCW Code; AND 12) Satisfy the training requirements of 46 CFR 10.480 for endorsement as Radar Observer (Unlimited); AND 13) Satisfy the Personal Survival training requirements of Section A-VI/1 of the STCW Code and 46 CFR 10.205(l)(1); AND 14) Satisfy the Fire Prevention and Fire Fighting training requirements of Section A-VI/1 of the STCW Code and 46 CFR 10.205(l)(2); AND 15) Satisfy the Elementary First Aid training requirements of Section A-VI/1 of the STCW Code and 46 CFR 10.205(l)(3); AND 16) Satisfy the Personal Safety & Social Responsibilities training requirements of Section A-VI/1 of the STCW Code and 46 CFR 10.205(l)(4); AND 17) Satisfy the Medical First Aid training requirements of Section A-VI/4 and Table A-VI/4-1 of the STCW Code; AND 18) Satisfy the “Medical Care Person” In Charge training requirements of Section A-VI/4 and Table A-VI/4-2 of the STCW Code; AND 19) Satisfy the training and examination requirements of 46 CFR 12.10-3(a)(6) and 12.10-5 for an endorsement as Lifeboatman and the Proficiency in Survival Craft training requirements of Section A-VI/2 and Table A-VI/2-1 of the STCW Code; AND 20) Satisfy the service requirements of 46 CFR 13.403(2) and the training requirements of 46 CFR 13.409 for an original endorsement as Tankerman-Assistant DL and may be issued an endorsement as Tankerman-Assistant DL; AND 21) Satisfy the training requirements of 46 CFR 13.509 for an endorsement as Tankerman-PIC. In order to qualify for an endorsement as Tankerman-PIC, a Cadet must provide evidence that the service and cargo transfer requirements of 46 CFR 13.203, 13.205, 13.303, and/or 13.305 have been satisfied; AND 22) Satisfy the requirements of Table A-VI/2-2 of the STCW Code for Fast Rescue Boats.

[JGWentworth]

Hello.......McFly........(knocking on forehead)

Y-o-u n-e-e-d t-h-e c-e-r-t-i-f-i-c-a-t-e-s.

Carry them - carry a scan of them on your thumb drive and/or computer, as well. Beyond what is required bu USCG, you will start getting into what is required by the individual companies in terms of training. The MMP hall will have a nice matrix to fill you in on what school you need to take next.

The Coast Guard MMC is just one of the documents you need to carry. A prime example is the HAZMAT cert I had to scramble to get in order to get my most recent ship.

Hey Rich, thanks for spelling it out for me I was having trouble, however I do have a college degree and am literate. I think you are having some trouble with the context of my problem. CMA CLEARLY does not issue these certificates or I would have received them upon graduation. I would be more than happy to scan them if I had them. Like I said before there seems to be a missing link. And as I said previously, other halls don't seem to be causing problems with this, which is why I was asking if any other recent graduates had been having the same problem seeing as we all have the same documents.

[RichMadden90]

Your welcome for spelling it out! These days a college education isn't a guarantee of literacy......

On a more productive note :

Check with the NY/NJ hall (201-963-1900)- ask for Jay - he is the dispatcher right now. Run your situation by him and see what he says. If Jay doesn't have the answer, he can check with Capt May who is the Northeast Vice President.

If that call doesn't resolve your issue, call MMP headquarters in Baltimore (410-850-8700), ask for Mary Seidman. Again, run your situation by her and see what she says.

In the long run, you will start accumulating certificates, as the training continues forever. Many companies who contract with MMP require more training than your basic license and STCW. While these are normally in the MMP computer system, it is highly recommended that you maintain your own "proof" by carrying the certificates. There are also equivalencies for such courses as Computer Systems or Diesel Control Systems - these must be granted by MITAGS, after you submit your information - depends on what your major and courses were.

When I got out of school some 19 years ago, they gave us a stack of certificates for our training - which was even before STCW. Check with your classmates who are sailing to find out what route they took if the above contacts don't help you out.

Now, I've gotta get back to the paint order......let us know how it turns out.

[cmjeff]

Your forgetting that the USCG issues minimum standards... a companies ISM documentation always has additional requirements. If the requirements are in the ISM docs, and you don't have proof of the training, the USCG inspector may request to see them regardless of what's mentioned in the CFRs.

Because the unions crew for so many different companies, the have set their own minimum standards.

Otherwise welcome to the first in a long line of maritime training BS you are going to encounter. It truly is the bane of my existence.

[RichMadden90]

Little later........I dropped the MMP hall in NY/NJ an email with your situation. When I hear back, I'll forward it. You can drop me an email at 014Alabama1MD@MLLFLEET.COM with your email address.

[cmakin]

Your welcome for spelling it out! These days a college education isn't a guarantee of literacy......

Oh, please, tell me that this was intentional. . . . . .

Either way it is entertaining.

[RichMadden90]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.........so much for paying attention to what I was writing........

[Jeffrox]

Beyond what is required bu USCG, you will start getting into what is required by the individual companies in terms of training. The MMP hall will have a nice matrix to fill you in on what school you need to take next.

MMP showed me that Training Matrix RIGHT AFTER I PAID MY 10% MONEY, That's also when they mentioned a whole lot of the LMSR's had transfered to AMO...Things went down-hill from there.

[10talents]

I stopped in to visit the Jacsksonville office earlier this year and apparently was interupting a very important computer solitaire game mastered by an old lady in a smoke filled room. I left one lonely 3rd mate sitting in the crew area. I thought I might be interested in joining but think I'll keep looking.

[MMA_Alex]

Up here at Maine Maritime we have no issue having whatever having documents printed that say we have radar, bst, etc. You probably need to keep asking around at the school until you find the right person.

[New3M]

It's the same way at SUNY - the MT secretary will print out any cert you need. We got some when we graduated, but most people got random ones - some got AFF, some got Radar, but not everybody got everything. I asked her for them, and the next day she put them in the mail to me. You're just not talking to the right person.

[jdcavo]

Contact CMA and get a radar certificate, and tell them all of your classmates need one also. Since the Coast Guard is no longer putting expiration dates for the radar observer endorsement on the MMC, you need that certificate (and so do all your classmates) to prove your radar is current, not just for MMP, but for Coast Guard inspectors also.

As far as BST, you should not need a certificate. We don't issue STCW certificates without it, so if your MMC has the STCW in it, you must have had current BST when it was issued. I'd try explaining that to MMP.

[Tugboattim]

same thing with suny, it was a mix of certs. I called up and asked for them and got the rest in the mail shortly after. Although i recently noticed on my stcw i do not have the tankerman ast. endorsement. I took the tankerman class in school and have the certificate. I now have my barge tankerman pic and that is on my z-card but again nothing is on my stcw. Should it be on there?

[JGWentworth]

Ya I just called NMC hq and they told me the same thing that the 3/m license mmc cannot be issued without BST so that is all good. They just need a RADAR certificate with an expiration date printed on it.

[KPEngineer]

I think your issue should be with your school, not with the union. Casual Maritime seems to be the only school that does not issue certs to graduating students. They are hamstringing you to save on paper. I know it's California, but come on!