Pilots associations…why has the average mariner always been so disenfranchised?

[c.captain]

I know that I am not the only master who has wondered why the many pilots associations throughout the country make it very difficult for the average mariner to become one. Famous are the associations which one must be a son or a nephew of a senior pilot to get a apprenticeship but now more common are the associations who will take on new apprentices but put them through many years with no pay effectively eliminating any of those masters who are not either 1) young and have few living expenses, 2) have a retirement income already, 3) are already wealthy or 4) are willing to incur huge amounts of debt to become a pilot.

I am not any of the above, but I have been licensed for 25years and have 20years as a master with lots of vessel handling experience. At 50 I find now that I am too old for most associations to even want to talk to me because I can’t give them enough “good years” before I retire and those that do want to give me an apprenticeship are not willing to pay me anything for at least two years. I’d be bankrupt in 6 months if I were to accept their terms.

Why can’t pilots associations make it easier for an older, highly experienced mariner a better chance to become one of their number?

[Capt. Nemo]

I know that I am not the only master who has wondered why the many pilots associations throughout the country make it very difficult for the average mariner to become one. Famous are the associations which one must be a son or a nephew of a senior pilot to get a apprenticeship but now more common are the associations who will take on new apprentices but put them through many years with no pay effectively eliminating any of those masters who are not either 1) young and have few living expenses, 2) have a retirement income already, 3) are already wealthy or 4) are willing to incur huge amounts of debt to become a pilot.

I am not any of the above, but I have been licensed for 25years and have 20years as a master with huge amounts of vessel handling experience. At 50 I find now that I am too old for most associations to even want to talk to me because I can’t give them enough “good years” before I retire and those that do want to give me an apprenticeship are not willing to pay me anything for at least two years. I’d be bankrupt in 6 months if I were to accept their terms.

Why can’t pilots associations make it easier for an older, highly experienced mariner a better chance to become one of their chosen few?

At "50", if you haven't found a home, with "huge amounts" of vessel handling experince by a "highly experienced" mariner, I suspect there's a reason. I don't know what happened in your employment history but it's got you screwed up.

Why are you not working for one of the outfits with which you accumulated this huge amount of vessel handling experience?

If I had to employ a Captain, it sure as hell wouldn't be you!

Nemo

[c.captain]

Hey Nemo...why the trash talk? I'm fully employed and making a good income so I'm only posing a question for this forum to perhaps add to the discussion. Am I wrong to think that is what it is here for or is it supposed to be a character assassination shooting gallery? You want me to attack each one of your posts?

NOW BACK THE F OFF!

btw...I mentioned all the vessel handling experience I have lest someone here say that many unlimited masters have never docked their own vessels and thus are inexperienced ship handlers or do you have a problem with this as well?

[Capt. Fran]

Hey C.Captain,

I'll think you'll find the climate a little more amenable to those of us with grey hair out here on the left coast than it is down in the GOM. Also, you don't have to be related to Bubba's cousin's sister's husband's son to get into a pilot association out here. You just have to be really, really, really good at what you do.

Most pilot associations out here take in newbies based strictly on a written examination followed by an objective performance assessment in a simulator. Which is really where the rubber meets the road. Freeze up in the simulator, and it is all over.

As for how long it takes to become a full fledged pilot after becoming an apprentice, well, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Good luck,
Fran

[Capt. Nemo]

Hey Cap,

I'm sorry if it seemed like I'm talking trash. I'm not and I don't. It just seems to me like you're bitter about your lot in life.

Your last rant complained about your inability to get a job as a harbor/bay pilot. You brag about your vast experience. If you're unhappy in your present situation suck it up and do better. A Master with your background and experience should be able to name his price. Or are the Norwegians getting all of the jobs?

If you want to talk some more, PM me.

Nemo

[c.captain]

At "50", if you haven't found a home, with "huge amounts" of vessel handling experince by a "highly experienced" mariner, I suspect there's a reason. I don't know what happened in your employment history but it's got you screwed up.

Why are you not working for one of the outfits with which you accumulated this huge amount of vessel handling experience?

If I had to employ a Captain, it sure as hell wouldn't be you!

Nemo....more than a couple baseless assumptions on your part and we know what happend when you make baseless assumptions.

sorry, but very simply put, this is trash talking!

[Mr 100-ton]

Chalk one up for C Captain,,, who put who in there place

now THAT is a sign of good captain

[Capt. Nemo]

You win!

I'll concede to the Left Coast.

Over and out.

Nemo

[Capt. Nemo]

I think I will...thanks for the insight

btw, is it ok to PM you?

By all means. PM on here or email at ILDIII@MSN.COM. Phone number is 817-431-2790. Try 817-602-6995 until Friday. I'm offshore until then.

[studbuzzar]

Man that was the best laugh I have had alll day! Serious question followed by a shot across the bow! I love this place!

[c.captain]

By all means. PM on here or email at ILDIII@MSN.COM. Phone number is 817-431-2790. Try 817-602-6995 until Friday. I'm offshore until then.

Nemo...that was meant for Capt. Fran not you

c.c

[Jemplayer]

Have you talked to the guys at LOOP? They start at $1500 a day and work 14/14. Top guy was making like $3500 and worked 14/21. When I was there we had one training mooring master that I wouldn't have let drive my 84ft line handler, so it must not take much to impress them.

While they were all from the east coast no real concentration of were they went to school or any real connection other then them having been masters on super tankers, but with that market pretty much dead and gone, I would think anybody with a proper license and experience with ships would fit the bill.

But I agree its crap that you have to be born or marry into the pilot jobs in the south. I know the Mississippi River and Lake Charles ones are all locked down, but what about Houston and Galveston?

[seadawg]

C.C

no trash talk here..must say enjoy your postings..sorry if the pilot "club" put you in a funk..pilot at 50 is a difficult parlor trick..only knew one captain that managed it and he was a local boy in the back water port of sabine/port arthur..he was an excitable type who had already had one open heart surgery..doubt he survived the transition..personally grew up down the street in NOLA from one cresent river pilot..a great man and captain..he was not part of the "club" or even had a high school education..got his ged was invited in and retired in fine style..neither of his sons made pilot due to drugs and alcohol..he might have sponsered me if I hadn't been busy globetrotting..not one of my better career decesions..don't understand why anyone would want to be a pilot other than for the stupid money..never cared if they were aboard and never allow them to drive.anyway all this makes for a good "sea story".

**docking pilot is a good gigg..if you can get it!!

[c.captain]

Actually Seadawg, I am no fan of pilots myself...most are pretty full of themselves and I have said that here on gCaptain already. What I wish I could understand however is why these damn associations want all these kids in their 30's when they could have someone much more seasoned and capable.

I guess they really don't care about the quality of the mariners they get to join them so long as they get mariners with the qualities they seek which seems to me to be youth and pliability. For the $$$ they offer, I can see they have no troubles getting applicants in the end so for sure no skin off their noses.

I did wonder if the COSCO BUSAN allision and the tougher mariner physical standards was going to create a rush to the exits for pilots with enough time to retire with full pensions and that would create a vacuum for more applicants and faster training programs. Does anyone know if this started in the past 12 months?

[mike173]

Why, because they might actually be held accountable for their actions? Pilots like to believe they are not actually part of the bridge team. Maybe now they are. In the old days, if a pilot ran a ship aground, he was hanged from the yardarm. Maybe it's time to bring back the practice.

[Shellback]

Why, because they might actually be held accountable for their actions? Pilots like to believe they are not actually part of the bridge team. Maybe now they are. In the old days, if a pilot ran a ship aground, he was hanged from the yardarm. Maybe it's time to bring back the practice.

It would certainly eliminate the " good old boy" network once and for all....

[Capt. Fran]

Nemo...that was meant for Capt. Fran not you

c.c

PM's are no problem.

[rjbpilot]

If you want zero nepotism, I would encourage you
to apply to Florida State pilots. They are
strictly run by the state. Each association has no say
about who they hire. All testing is administered by the
state. The best scoring applicants get the job, period. I have two
friends at Port Everglades and they are former Great
Lakes pilots, like myself. Also,for your information, there is another
former Great Lakes guy at Lake Charles, presently. Ever since the big
ta-do down there, things are definitely different, not that nepotism
doesn't still exist in certain places. Piloting is a great job, in itself.
I thoroughly enjoyed it. But all the politics that are involved is
a real drag and the inflated egos of certain members that
makes a nice skipper job on an osv more attractive in many ways.

[injunear]

As well as my memory serves me, I've sailed with 26 guys that have become pilots. 4 guys that I last sailed with have applications in with several ports and will probably make it in the next couple of years.

Most of these guys were 32 to 36 when they made it. 1 was 40 and 1 was 45. 2 had a little help from family. All were above average in their skills.

[Capt_Anonymous]

San Francisco, Puget Sound, Southeast Alaska Pilot groups are all about your score, and not about who you're related to or know. Written exam, simulator exam. High score wins, period.