NMC Requires PL 11-07\Not a Hawespiper?

[Marlowe]

Would like to hear from anyone on the board that has been in a similar situation...

I have a buddy who graduated from a state maritime academy in the mid 70's and was issued an Unlimited Masters\Oceans license in the mid 80's. This gent sailed CM as recently as 1998 via STCW78 and was issued his last STCW78 document in 2001. He never recieved STCW95 but went through extensive union sponsored training at MITAGS and other schools through out his career (GMDSS, MEDPIC, Adv Meteor, Shipandling, BST etc. etc.). His masters license is current albeit with no STCW.

After a second career ashore this gentleman would like go back to the sea.

He applied for STCW and NMC advised him that he was obligated to complete the assessments in Policy Letter 11-07 although he's not a hawspiper..

Bit of "Catch 22" situation with regard to the onboard assessments...

Anyone on the board who has returned to the sea after a break and found themselves in a similar predicament?

Mr. Cavo - Can you shed any light on the applicability of 11-07 in this situation?

[c.captain]

After a second career ashore this gentleman would like go back to the sea.

This was just talked about here but imo no free rides for people who have not been out there plugging along all this time on the ships!

FUCK these guys who leave ships and then think they can just walk back in!

[catherder]

Tell him to do what the rest of us returnees and ex-military have been doing, and shell out money for the necessary courses. It is what it is.

[tugsailor]

An academy grad friend of mine had a similar experience. He had to spend a lot of time and money to get his license back with current STCW. Once he got his license back it took him about a nanosecond to find a drilling job.

Back when seagoing jobs were scarce, its a good thing some these guys went ashore and opened up seagoing opportunities for others. Who would you rather have for a shoreside manager: a beancounter or a mariner? Now that there plenty of seagoing jobs to go around, I say welcome back.

[Marlowe]

shell out money for the necessary courses. It is what it is.

The $ and the course work isn't the problem. This is an Unlimted Master Mariner with nearly 20 years worth of seatime and he's only 2-3 courses short. My question is simlply if PL 11-07 is applicable in this case as there is no clear way to get them without a license (I suppose he could sail as AB) and the letter indicates that it is applicable to hawespipers only. Looking to find out how it is being interpreted based on others' experience because I "think" the evaluator is incorrect in applying it here.

[Marlowe]

This was just talked about here but imo no free rides for people who have not been out there plugging along all this time on the ships!

FUCK these guys who leave ships and then think they can just walk back in!

I'm sorry you feel that way. This guy earned the right to walk back in based on 20 some odd years worth of discharges. Sad really to have such an attitude about a shipmate. He's not asking for a free ride just a reasonable way back in. Most everyone who was at sea in the late 90's \ early 00's was grandfathered. You?

[cappy208]

I'm sorry you feel that way. This guy earned the right to walk back in based on 20 some odd years worth of discharges. Sad really to have such an attitude about a shipmate. He's not asking for a free ride just a reasonable way back in. Most everyone who was at sea in the late 90's \ early 00's was grandfathered. You?

Sorry, Ccaptain gets up on the wrong side of the bed frequently. The 'right' to walk back was removed when STCW 95 was adopted. This was done specifically because of instances like this. However, in the time your friend left the industry to now the regs have changed. It used to be that once you got STCW you had it for life. When the new STCW 95 was introduced it was good for 5 years. BUT, if you continually sail, it is self renewing. Since your friend hasn't been sailing his has lapsed. Classes are needed.

[c.captain]

Hey...what's with this shit about "I'm posting this for a friend" anyway? Is it you then say so but if it is somebody else, then they should get on here themselves to ask.

seems like a poop filled stinky to me

and no freebies either!

[tugsailor]

I'm sorry you feel that way. This guy earned the right to walk back in based on 20 some odd years worth of discharges. Sad really to have such an attitude about a shipmate. He's not asking for a free ride just a reasonable way back in. Most everyone who was at sea in the late 90's \ early 00's was grandfathered. You?

If someone needs to renew a lapsed license, or get a license out of continuity, they just need to spend the time and money to take the required exams and the required STCW courses.

Nowadays, it is expensive for all of us to obtain and maintain a license. The only issue is the time and money.

[Marlowe]

I'll give it one more shot:

In the experience of forum members...

Does PL 11-07 apply to an academy grad with an active, current unlimited master's license who is applying for STCW only? Course work is nearly there and not relevant to the question. Does this guy have to complete the onboard assessments that are not otherwise inluded as part of course approvals. Does the letter even apply?

Interested to know and I told my buddy that I would query the gcaptain forum because I thought it would be helpful.

If anyone has a relevant experience to share I would appreciate it.

[cappy208]

I'll give it one more shot:

In the experience of forum members...

Does PL 11-07 apply to an academy grad with an active, current unlimited master's license who is applying for STCW only? Course work is nearly there and not relevant to the question. Does this guy have to complete the onboard assessments that are not otherwise inluded as part of course approvals. Does the letter even apply?

interested to know and I told my buddy that I would query the gcaptain forum because I thought it would be helpful.

If anyone has a relevant experience to share I would appreciate it.

Holy shit Batman....... What part of "You need to Re test for STCW BECAUSE OF A LAPSE IN SERVICE" do you not understand? No matter WHO it is, if you don't continue shipping for 5 years you LOSE the ability to 'renew' without taking courses. None of us like it. But we all abide by it. (Even those highly esteemed Maritime Graduate, U/L Masters with 20 years in.)!

When I ( a lowly 1600 ton Master with over 30 years in) go in for a renewal, I must provide a certain level of seatime to ensure my 'grandfathered' STCW remains in force. Since your friend has provided NONE for over 5 years, he is SOL. All of the courses he took previous ( STCW 78) are invalid for the requisite 'renewal' requirements (STCW 95). The grandfather clause only applies if one has continually shipped since the implementation of the new regs.

[tugsailor]

I'll give it one more shot:

In the experience of forum members...

Does PL 11-07 apply to an academy grad with an active, current unlimited master's license who is applying for STCW only? Course work is nearly there and not relevant to the question. Does this guy have to complete the onboard assessments that are not otherwise inluded as part of course approvals. Does the letter even apply?

Interested to know and I told my buddy that I would query the gcaptain forum because I thought it would be helpful.

If anyone has a relevant experience to share I would appreciate it.

Listen up. For the second time, I can tell you that I know an academy grad, CMA 1990, who did not let his license lapse, and he had to spend thousands of dollars and months of his time to take all the required STCW courses.

[Marlowe]

Listen up. For the second time, I can tell you that I know an academy grad, CMA 1990, who did not let his license lapse, and he had to spend thousands of dollars and months of his time to take all the required STCW courses.

Yep, agree. He has most of the courses completed, up to date etc... Time and money being spent...

Just tryinng to sort out the assessment piece because NMC says that 11-07 applies and there are assessments that you can only get onboard. It was a surprise because the PL indicates that it is not applicable to academy grads..

[Marlowe]

Holy shit Batman....... What part of "You need to Re test for STCW BECAUSE OF A LAPSE IN SERVICE" do you not understand?.

His license is current albeit for doemstic service only so there is no retest. There is no test specifically for STCW anyway so not sure what you mean. Yes he has to meet the standard at least for OICNW or do all the course work for the Management level if chooses to but he doesn't have to sit again.

I should have been more speciifc: his STCW95 course work for OICNW is nearly up to date so he submitted for evaluation. It's the assemssments above and beyond courses in PL 11-07 that were surprising and are tripping him up.. Kind of humerous in a way becasue alot of them are related to celestial nav and this guy started sailing at a time when it was the primary method of fixing a position at sea.

Maybe what you all are trying to say is that time and money related to course work is all he needs.. That was my assumption too so the onboard assessment thing was a surprise.

[cappy208]

His license is current albeit for doemstic service only so there is no retest. There is no test specifically for STCW anyway so not sure what you mean.

I should have been more speciifc: his STCW95 course work is nearly up to date so he submitted for evaluation. It's the assemssments above and beyond courses in PL 11-07 that were surprising and are tripping him up..

So he HAS retested the STCW course..... Then he needs the onboard assessments done. He should have contacts to get aboard a 'greater than 100 ton' vessel, to get signed off. It sux, but he took the time off. This is the new world order......... Welcome back to the grind.

[c.captain]

I'll give it one more shot:

In the experience of forum members...

Does PL 11-07 apply to an academy grad with an active, current unlimited master's license who is applying for STCW only? Course work is nearly there and not relevant to the question. Does this guy have to complete the onboard assessments that are not otherwise inluded as part of course approvals. Does the letter even apply?

Interested to know and I told my buddy that I would query the gcaptain forum because I thought it would be helpful.

If anyone has a relevant experience to share I would appreciate it.

tell your friend to come here himself and ask but I say that if NMC wants him to get the assessments then he needs them even though that is not what your buddy wants to hear. Remember that July 2002 is a key date here. If he does not have seatime after that year then I believe he gets nothing grandfathered in and I personally do not like these guys who come and go from sailing but think that they deserve to be considered the same as a man who has been working at sea throughout. Skills and knowledge need to be continually refreshed and updated. If he goes back to sea it should be as a 2nd mate for at least a year imo.

[Marlowe]

tell your friend to come here himself and ask but I say that if NMC wants him to get the assessments then he needs them even though that is not what your buddy wants to hear. Remember that July 2002 is a key date here. If he does not have seatime after that year then I believe he gets nothing grandfathered in and I personally do not like these guys who come and go from sailing but think that they deserve to be considered the same as a man who has been working at sea throughout. Skills and knowledge need to be continually refreshed and updated. If he goes back to sea it should be as a 2nd mate for at least a year imo.

Just my opinion but I don't think you lose 10+ years experience sailing CM just becase you come ashore for a spell. Sure there are some rusty skills and new equipment to deal with but a container ship is a container ship and most of the US flag ships are exactly as they were 20 years ago aside for some new tankers. All this guy is looking for are a couple of trips a year as 3rd/2nd mate. I suspect that is the part that you like the least. I know him and he deserves it just as well as you. Heck, the slot he left open when he left opened up an opportunity for someone else. Now he's competing with newer grads. I'm all for it.

[cappy208]

Of course you don't lose the time and experience. No one ever said you did. But, as far as renewing, without seatime at every renewal STCW isn't self renewing for anyone. (Not even the Pope!). You can argue it. You can not like it. But..... You still have to comply if you want the big bucks.

[Capt. Phoenix]

I should have been more speciifc: his STCW95 course work for OICNW is nearly up to date so he submitted for evaluation. It's the assemssments above and beyond courses in PL 11-07 that were surprising and are tripping him up.. Kind of humerous in a way becasue alot of them are related to celestial nav and this guy started sailing at a time when it was the primary method of fixing a position at sea.

The assessments are required whether you get them from classes or at sea. It is possible to get all OICNW assessments done via the classroom. Those assessments do not apply only to hawsepipers, current academy graduates do all the assessments in classes and on their training cruises. He needs to do them, deal with it.

[Marlowe]

deal with it.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that all the assessments could be done in the classroom until I checked with PMI. Makes sense now I guess. What doesn't make too much sense is all the attitude on this board. Sort of an,"I got screwed so screw you too" attitude. I kind of like the idea of a 60 year old guy taking a 2nd mate's job and throwing down star fixes for fun because he can. Suppose alot of you would love to have the flexibilty to choose between the sea and the shore but won't admit it. This have to stick with the sea for 40 continuous years to be real sentiment is all bravado and a complete crock. There are enough jobs for the folks that want them. Be happy for the guy. He's one of you. Just made some different choices.