Question regarding Master of Towing and a First class pilot endorsement

**subatomicstang** · February 7th, 2013, 07:34 PM

The CFR says that if you are applying for FCP and you hold a Master of Towing that you may apply for an endorsement in lieu of original and that they will not issue anything under 1600 gt. Has anyone done this? Does applying for the endorsement instead of original mean you only have to take ROR, local knowledge, and Chart Sketch?

**z-drive** · February 8th, 2013, 12:35 AM

Get the local FCP packet from your REC. My take on it is in that case you'd just hve to take what you mentioned. Up my way we have a few routes that may be restricted to unlimited Tug/Barge unless you have trips on conventional vessels over 1,600 tons (assuming your trips are on tugs/barges over 1,600 tons), otherwise without the trips over that tonnage threshold you're out of luck. But there are exceptions (SE Alaska for example) that have some tonnage exceptions, so get with your REC for the local packet.

**cappy208** · February 8th, 2013, 01:36 AM

No pilotage is ever issued for less than 1600 tons anyway, as a vessel less than 1600 tons only requires recency. As Z-drive says, you must make sure you submit trips OVER 1600 GT. Some COTP areas have kowtowed to local Political Interest groups since visiting 'lowly' tug and barge operators can accrue significant trips over 1600 GT, and thus can get unlimited Pilotage. This 'encroachment' of " Other" Federal pilots is how the established organizations lose market share. If you are lucky enough to have 'ship' trips (over 1600 GT) consider yourself lucky. Regarding the exam. If you HAVE taken terrestrial at the unlimited Mate level, (since the new regs were imposed approx 2003 (or so)) then you will just have to do the RoR, local knowledge, chart plot and light list. If you have never taken terrestrial, then buckle up......

Regarding limited Pilotage, Some organizations have successfully petitioned the USCG to allow employees to sit for a limited endorsement (say 2,000GT). Or are route specific ( from ferry dock A to Ferry dock B). But these are few and far between. And the CG only gives these when political pressure overcomes the Regs.

**subatomicstang** · February 8th, 2013, 07:23 AM

I am lucky enough to have ship trips. Im in a docking master apprenticeship right now. When i upgraded my license to 1600 master nc i only took a limited test. Ror, deck gen, and deck safety n environmental protection. Something like that anyways. Ill be sending my papers in next week i was just hoping someone would have knowledge of it.
Thanks alot

**Tugted** · February 8th, 2013, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by subatomicstang

I am lucky enough to have ship trips. Im in a docking master apprenticeship right now. When i upgraded my license to 1600 master nc i only took a limited test. Ror, deck gen, and deck safety n environmental protection. Something like that anyways. Ill be sending my papers in next week i was just hoping someone would have knowledge of it.
Thanks alot

Where you doing this??

**Jolly Tar** · February 8th, 2013, 06:06 PM

If he's in JAX like I think he is - he is INDEED lucky - the State Pilots let next to NO ONE ride for trips.

Originally Posted by Tugted

Where you doing this??

**cappy208** · February 8th, 2013, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jolly Tar

If he's in JAX like I think he is - he is INDEED lucky - the State Pilots let next to NO ONE ride for trips.

Thus the friction between 'docking masters' and river pilots.

**ElCapitan** · February 8th, 2013, 07:44 PM

You can ride the ships at South West Pass, if you are related to a pilot.

**subatomicstang** · February 8th, 2013, 09:03 PM

Yes im in Jax. Ive got my pinky toe in right now with the guys who dock ships for Moran. I just need to get my paperwork taken care of and keep training in my spare time. The relations with the state pilots are pretty good they have a good group of guys here.

**lemurian** · February 9th, 2013, 11:14 AM

I believe the tonnage of both tug and tow apply. If you've been pulling barges, use their gross tonnage. As for ship assist, I don't know.

**chile caliente** · February 9th, 2013, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by lemurian

I believe the tonnage of both tug and tow apply. If you've been pulling barges, use their gross tonnage. As for ship assist, I don't know.

Please site regs for this, find it doubtful

**z-drive** · February 9th, 2013, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by chile caliente

Please site regs for this, find it doubtful

46 CFR ch 1, 11.713 subpart d

Combined gross tonnage of towing vessel and the vessel(s) in tow will be considered.

That's why you need the packet from the local REC. they really can't deny you FCP for tug/barge trips over 1,600 tons but if its in their rules can limit it to "unlimited tug and barge" unless you have ship trips.

**tugsailor** · February 9th, 2013, 01:11 PM

Some OCMIs require a certain number of ship trips on certain routes, but others will allow all tug and barge combined tonnage trips. The policies may change with OCMI's or with political pressure brought to bear by pilots and industry.

I suspect that someday STCW will address the minimum qualifications for pilots. When and if that happens, its not hard to guess the types of changes that is apt to bring.

**Clear Solution** · February 9th, 2013, 01:47 PM

Well shit... You mean I can include all my time shoving 15 barges at the time? 1100gt each... Hello unlimited license!!!

**cappy208** · February 9th, 2013, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Clear Solution

Well shit... You mean I can include all my time shoving 15 barges at the time? 1100gt each... Hello unlimited license!!!

Don't confuse PILOT tonnage with the tonnage necessary to upgrade to an unlimited license. Two completely different topics.

**Jolly Tar** · February 9th, 2013, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by z-drive

46 CFR ch 1, 11.713 subpart d

Combined gross tonnage of towing vessel and the vessel(s) in tow will be considered.

That's why you need the packet from the local REC. they really can't deny you FCP for tug/barge trips over 1,600 tons but if its in their rules can limit it to "unlimited tug and barge" unless you have ship trips.

ZACKLY! In the JAX area they can't ALL be Tug/Barge trips - SOME have to be ships, I forget the the actual percentage required.

**subatomicstang** · February 9th, 2013, 07:05 PM

The crowley Docking Masters are getting FCP with tug n barge trips.

**Jolly Tar** · February 9th, 2013, 07:26 PM

I'm sure they are - as stated above they can't ALL be tug/barge combos and with the amount of ship traffic on the St John there's no need for them to be.

Originally Posted by subatomicstang

The crowley Docking Masters are getting FCP with tug n barge trips.

**z-drive** · February 9th, 2013, 08:44 PM

What's so complicated about this? In some places unlimited unrestricted FCP for certain routes can be attained with strictly tug barge trips over 1600 tons, or trips on conventional vessels, or a combination of the two. In other places if you only have trips with a tug/barge your FCP would be limited to "unlimited tug and barge."

If I recall correctly 4 trips on a conventional vessel will unlimited said endorsement.

**z-drive** · February 9th, 2013, 08:48 PM

When I get home in a few days ill put up an example.

Bottom line is just call the REC and get a FCP packet for where you are looking to get the route. Or better yet the guys who are letting you ride should be able to answer any questions.

A question I have is who actually evaluates FCP endorsements? I can't see the NMC being sympathetic to pilot associations about excluding anyone as the local RECs may have been.