HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

[Capt Leigh]

I too must weigh in to try reiterating what my earlier post tried to make clear.

You clear a harbor only if it is deemed not to be a safe refuge otherwise, you remain in the safety of said harbor

If a harbor is not deemed to be safe (and there is no reason whatsoever that any competent master would not deem New London safe based on ALL National Hurricane Center predictions preceding the departure of the BOUNTY) then one takes his vessel to sea TO EVADE the storm.


The American Practical Navigator page 516

Even had Sandy been heading straight for Rhode Island, given ample time the track to safety lay towards to east. Walbridge did not go east to the shelter of Cape Cod Bay or even out past the Georges Bank. He chose to go west towards the storm to get in the supposedly safe semicircle because that was in the direction of his destination which I suspect is exactly what the owners wanted him to do. What he did was to not take his ship towards maximum safety but instead made a bet with the devil that he could get to where wind and sea would be on his stern and the storm would pass by safely behind him. By all accounts it appears that he virtually made good on that bet except that when he hit the shallows off the Carolina Banks, he found himself in seas that an old wooden hull simply could not survive.

If someone here can make any claim to the contrary then please present it now.

Absolutely correct, and well stated.....

[catherder]

I just paid a visit to a US-flag Hapag Lloyd box boat that rolled in from Charleston. They were talking about this. Everyone is. People are just perplexed. As others have said, I hope the CG digs deep to get to the bottom of things, and the vessel owners can hang for all I care. I understand risk management, had enough of that drilled into my head in my various lives in this business. But there is no risk worth putting people's lives at stake needlessly. I'm having a hard time getting my mind around it.

But then again, I can't figure out why the TV weather-casters stand in hip-deep water and hurricane force winds for hours, either. I keep waiting for one of them to get decapitated by a stop sign, like Odd Job and his steel-brimmed hat in Goldfinger. Was anyone else waiting for a street sign, or power cable, or Godzilla to carry Ali Velshi away?

[flotsam]

nice, deckape. and losing the vessel / crew off hatteras in a hurricane has the highest chances of incurring the highest cost, which is why every other captain along the eastern seaboard sought a lee. or utilized a modern contraption known as an anchor.

i'm glad you're not my insurance agent because by your rationale i'd be better off drunk driving than drinking beers on my tailgate, lest i slip and fall in the parking lot.

[DeckApe]

My prose wasn't that good or my sarcasm would have been easier to find...

I do stand behind the logic of putting a ship to sea from the ship owners perspective. If someone only takes financial risk and completely ignores the lives at risk it was a reasonable gamble. It's gone on for ages.

As c.captain points out, had they gone East the gamble would likely have worked.

That doesn't excuse it. It just puts things into perspective when the companies we work for put profit and loss above safety. How many of us work for companies or know of companies that underman, under repair and overwork to the point where safety is at risk?

How many of us have worked for a captain who does the company's bidding even when he knows its dangerous?

[mb05j]

I too must weigh in to try reiterating what my earlier post tried to make clear.

You clear a harbor only if it is deemed not to be a safe refuge otherwise, you remain in the safety of said harbor

If a harbor is not deemed to be safe (and there is no reason whatsoever that any competent master would not deem New London safe based on ALL National Hurricane Center predictions preceding the departure of the BOUNTY) then one takes his vessel to sea TO EVADE the storm.

The American Practical Navigator page 516

Even had Sandy been heading straight for Rhode Island, given ample time the track to safety lay towards to east. Walbridge did not go east to the shelter of Cape Cod Bay or even out past the Georges Bank. He chose to go west towards the storm to get in the supposedly safe semicircle because that was in the direction of his destination which I suspect is exactly what the owners wanted him to do. What he did was to not take his ship towards maximum safety but instead made a bet with the devil that he could get to where wind and sea would be on his stern and the storm would pass by safely behind him. By all accounts it appears that he virtually made good on that bet except that when he hit the shallows off the Carolina Banks, he found himself in seas that an old wooden hull simply could not survive.

If someone here can make any claim to the contrary then please present it now.

My counter argument would be that it is a fallacy to say that the storm itself caused the ship to take on anymore water than it normally does in a storm. Having sailed through many on the bounty I can tell you, we would have to keep the pumps running almost constantly to keep the boat dry. When it was dead calm out, we would still pump out the ship every hour. That is the reality of these wooden ships.
I hear all this chatter about how stupid it was to sail into a hurricane, but the reality is that had we lost bilge pumps on any transatlantic or pacific crossing the outcome may have been the same if a ship was not in the vicinity to facilitate a rescue.
What I do agree with is that the risk of being in a storm and losing bilge pumps was not considered, but there again that is the nature of wooden ships that sail across oceans.

[SeaSick]

My counter argument would be that it is a fallacy to say that the storm itself caused the ship to take on anymore water than it normally does in a storm. Having sailed through many on the bounty I can tell you, we would have to keep the pumps running almost constantly to keep the boat dry. When it was dead calm out, we would still pump out the ship every hour. That is the reality of these wooden ships.
I hear all this chatter about how stupid it was to sail into a hurricane, but the reality is that had we lost bilge pumps on any transatlantic or pacific crossing the outcome may have been the same if a ship was not in the vicinity to facilitate a rescue.
What I do agree with is that the risk of being in a storm and losing bilge pumps was not considered, but there again that is the nature of wooden ships that sail across oceans.

What, no redundancy? Just because you did it before, doesn't make it the correct thing to do, or even good seamanship. A master's job would be to take this into account before making a trip. Running into/against the gulf stream against a hurricane in a boat that leaks? Also, if they knew they were having problems, why did they cancel their mayday the night before? They could have had the coast guard drop dewatering pumps to them.

Why would ANYONE knowingly set sail on a vessel that is one pump failure away from sinking?

[mb05j]

What, no redundancy? Just because you did it before, doesn't make it the correct thing to do, or even good seamanship. A master's job would be to take this into account before making a trip. Running into/against the gulf stream against a hurricane in a boat that leaks? Also, if they knew they were having problems, why did they cancel their mayday the night before? They could have had the coast guard drop dewatering pumps to them.

Why would ANYONE knowingly set sail on a vessel that is one pump failure away from sinking?

The redundancy is that there are two generators and two bilge pumps. As to how they lost both generators I have no idea.

[SeaSick]

I would venture to guess that they started taking on more water than they could handle, engine room floods, no more power...

[c.captain]

My counter argument would be that it is a fallacy to say that the storm itself caused the ship to take on anymore water than it normally does in a storm. Having sailed through many on the bounty I can tell you, we would have to keep the pumps running almost constantly to keep the boat dry. When it was dead calm out, we would still pump out the ship every hour. That is the reality of these wooden ships.
I hear all this chatter about how stupid it was to sail into a hurricane, but the reality is that had we lost bilge pumps on any transatlantic or pacific crossing the outcome may have been the same if a ship was not in the vicinity to facilitate a rescue.
What I do agree with is that the risk of being in a storm and losing bilge pumps was not considered, but there again that is the nature of wooden ships that sail across oceans.

Why on earth are you still here SIR! You are simply a BLITHERING FOOL and I will not waste valuable electrons arguing with you and your idiotic reasoning and excuses



this image alone is all the evidence needed to obtain a conviction!

[c.captain]

I would venture to guess that they started taking on more water than they could handle, engine room floods, no more power...

Without doubt! In wildly short and steep stern seas, that horn timber and rudder would be twisting constantly and it was only a short matter of time before all the plank ends sprung and then popping the planks off the frames forward from there. With the engine and generators all aft, that was the first space to flood and I hazard to guess that the vessel did not have an emergency generator or an emergency bilge pump?

With this scenario, the way to save the vessel would have been to have to wear ship to bring her head to the sea and to stream anything possible in the form of a storm anchor to hold the head up. With the strain off the sternpost, the flooding might have subsided enough for the pumps to keep up with the inrush of water. What I want to know is each and every step Walbridge took in the 12 hours prior to the loss of the vessel? The survivors hopefully will tell us soon.

[cappy208]

The redundancy is that there are two generators and two bilge pumps. As to how they lost both generators I have no idea.

NO. The redundancy is Mechanical bilge pumps. With a short handed crew, and minimal watches, working a mechanical pump 24/7 would just about kill 15 men. Especially in those seas. 2' an hour, NORMAL? I doubt it. A fully found vessel, in good condition would not be working that much.

This is why in the 'old' days these ships were sold off, turned into barns or otherwise became floating hotels, prisons or bases of docks!

[SeaSick]

What I want to know is each and every step Walbridge took in the 12 hours prior to the loss of the vessel? The survivors hopefully will tell us soon.

Was the Bounty required to have a VDR?

[c.captain]

Was the bounty required to have a float free VDR?

No since it wasn't SOLAS.

btw...I found this on the woodenboat forum. Note the date and time!

10-27-2012, 03:22 PM #7

Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

He is sailing down wind into the big drop off of the shelf with a northly flow of current. The winds are in and around north by notheast 40 knots right now and the bulk of the weather has not reached the point of the banks yet .He needs to be removed from his duties if they make it thru tonight in one piece.The bouy off of Hatteras is reporting 24 foot seas right now with the center of the storm still south.

I also just found this image...note the exact location where the ship came to grief!




That man foretold it all long before anyone else.

[cappy208]

I never succumbed to the lunacy of falling in love with old rotten wooden boats, (at the sacrifice of safety, and ease of use) like some of these idjiots have, But the wooden boat forum had one wise person post there which rings true:

This is why I stopped sailing on tall ships. Lack of judgement is pretty common.

Maybe this will be a wake up call to the CG to tighten up the loopholes on these 'training' vessels. Oh yeah, maybe have an investigator (or two) who can actually determine what rot is, and what structural deficiencies are in wooden construction. There are several wooden 'tall ships' which should be...Ummmm... Retired. shall we say!

[Topsail]

BRIDGEWATER — The captain of the Picton Castle says he can’t understand why the Bounty was at sea Monday when a massive hurricane was forecast to hit.

Indeed, Dan Moreland postponed leaving Lunenburg more than a week ago precisely because of hurricane Sandy.

“It was an easy decision to make,” he said. “It’s black and white, there are no nuances with this. It’s a huge system and that made the decision very simple.” ...

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...a-during-storm

[seadog!]

@ mb05j -
I am reserving judgement.

Some technical questions please.
I understand Bounty was diesel electric, correct?
Two gens driving 2 shafts, correct?
Two gens powering 2 electric bilge pumps, correct?
Both pumps able to be powered by either gen?, or were they mechanical engine driven pumps?
Were there any mechanical (human powered) bilge pumps?
Did each gen have it's own fuel day tank, or were they common?

Thank you for any insight you provide on the engineering capabilities of the vessel.



I hope no one on this forum is ever in a jury I'm ever faced with.

[cappy208]

Interesting that plot, Apparently he turned shortly after noon on Sunday and put the wind on the beam and was reaching as fast as he could away from land. It will be interesting to hear what really happened to make him change his course so radically.

He was running down wind for a day and a half then either resumed his original 'go East of Sandy" idea, OR something sprung and he was trying to ease the leak. I wonder what he communicated to the office? It must have been recorded somewhere.

[mb05j]

@ mb05j -
I am reserving judgement.

Some technical questions please.
I understand Bounty was diesel electric, correct?
Two gens driving 2 shafts, correct?
Two gens powering 2 electric bilge pumps, correct?
Both pumps able to be powered by either gen?, or were they mechanical engine driven pumps?
Were there any mechanical (human powered) bilge pumps?
Did each gen have it's own fuel day tank, or were they common?

Thank you for any insight you provide on the engineering capabilities of the vessel.

I hope no one on this forum is ever in a jury I'm ever faced with.

Bounty had two John deer 375 hp mains as well as two generators of which the specifications I don't know.
The ship had two electric bilge pumps as well that could be run off either generator. Only one generator was used at a time and the other was used as a backup and would be switched daily.
Each generator had a separate day tank. There was not a mechanical pump to my knowledge.
Bear in mind my last season was 2011 so it's possible some things may have changed in the past year, but I doubt it.

[c.captain]

I hope no one on this forum is ever in a jury I'm ever faced with.

You'd have nothing whatsoever to worry about provided you make prudent decisions in a timely fashion with due regard for all laws, regulations and the practice of good seamanship!

otherwise...take the plea bargain if offered

[Topsail]

Port 15 some more ... when a north east hurricane force wind meets the Gulf Stream off Hatteras ... !!!