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Thread: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

  1. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeckApe
    Maybe the experience of loosing shipmates and the near death experience has sent them into shock? Maybe they want to spend time with loved ones and not on some morning talk show?

    The hysteria some of you are on has crossed the line into the foaming at the mouth Jerry Springer type and is distracting from your otherwise insightful posts.
    If you are gonna invoke Jerry Springer I wanna see boobies. Please post pics.
    Let them who know not how to pray, go to sea.
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    Quote Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
    The way I am interpreting it is: A Thespian is an actor or a member of the acting association. Traditionally these types of people are extremely INTO their "craft'' to the exclusion of all else (including reality) It would appear that this then is a quite apt description of these people.

    They are living a dream, acting out a fantasy, If they happen to make any money it is a bonus, and probably the most importantly, they don't know any better. This sounds exactly like drama class to me!

    Your comment about yachters is appropo to. They too live in a world of fantasy. I have had several who have come over to Tugs for a steady paycheck. Few ever can acclimate to the commercial world. They don't know how to (act) in this world. The priorities are completely different. (Just the same, I am sure most of us wouldn't makeit in their world of salt and pepper beards, yo ho and all that)

    So I think "thespians" is an appropriate description of these (ahem) sailors.
    Now I will venture to say that a person who devotes their life to these sailing vessels like the BOUNTY are not you nor I from being what we all here consider as "professional mariners" even if they do get paid but I say that they might well become "seasoned sailors" who understand proper seamanship, navigation, vessel maintenance and such. I will even say that Walbridge may well have been one himself and that to command a vessel the likes of the BOUNTY would require knowledge and sail handling abilities that a "professional mariner" would not have simply because we do not have his experience. It is also just as possible that a "professional" master on a cargo ship could make the same terrible decision to take his ship into harms way for no good reason. I did it once and learned to never do it again so in a sense became a much more seasoned from my experience and a better professional for it. So I guess what I am saying is that they might not be pure actors but instead play a role when showing their ships to the paying public.

    Now the flip side of the coin is that people who crew these sailing vessels are generally not underway much and rarely in foul weather so they do not ultimately gain that hard learned experience of sailing their ships in such conditions. Of course, Walbridge might have just been downright obtuse and never learned a damned thing in all his years other than to have played the role he did (note his little pony tail in the video). The light of evidence that he took his ship when he did, where he did does not paint a picture of a man with a true sea sense. Now we will only have anecdotal evidence from he words of others who sailed under his command to testify as to his competence, leadership and judgement. I do believe them to be a very close and insular group who will not want to speak ill of the man even though he may well have cost them their lives the other night for his folly. I can see how they would believe that they would have made it just fine had God not thrown those infernal seas up to rip the stern off the ship and they would be right except that they would be ignoring the fact that although God made the seas, it was Walbridge placed that ship there last Sunday night. (we have so far not touched on the fact that he could well have altered the track to take the vessel farther offshore and away from the shoals off Hatteras where he might have found an easier albeit longer ride to his destination)

    I think the whole of this is that men who work on ships and boats of all backgrounds are not necessarily seamen. Us who came from hard working vessels are better seamen though because adversity and struggle make a man a tougher and more resilient seaman. As the saying goes "that which doesn't kill you only makes you stronger". Those who spend their entire careers on vessels like the BOUNTY or some wedding cake in Monaco or St. Barts will never have the same abilities as us here because they just haven't faced our world where we're constantly running up against difficulties but always learning. What is unfortunate is that most of them in that bubble don't realize that fact.
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    I'm paraphrasing this:

    The national media is getting extremely aggressive, calling family members and friends and searching facebook looking for quotes. The surviving crew members of the Bounty have decided together not to talk to the media. Out of respect for the families of their deceased and missing shipmates, they do not want to provide details of their harrowing experience. If contacted by the media,they will refrain from providing details or criticizing the decision to sail. Please limit any comments to expressing your relief that the crew was rescued and appreciation for the professionalism and dedication of the Coast Guard.

    Most of the crew are just now arriving at their homes.
    The transportation systems were severely disrupted by Sandy, travel has been difficult.
    No crew will avoid speaking with Coast Guard investigators.
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. -Red Green
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    Quote Originally Posted by seadog! View Post
    I'm paraphrasing this:
    what's the source?
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    A crew members mother.
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. -Red Green
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    I gotta back up c.captain on his point. I know a number of sailors who have probably never set foot on a merchant ship who have a heck of a lot more experience at sea than many commercial ship captains. Like c.captain noted however, it's just a different type of experience, and it's not necessarily the type of seamanship you learn in a classroom.

    For those of you who are patting yourself on the back for having an Unlimited Masters ticket and thinking you've learned everything there is to learn about the sea, I recommend doing two things..

    1) Watch out because you're probably about to run aground, catch fire, or do something really stupid because you've become complacent.
    2) Get on a small boat and go on an extended offshore passage somewhere. See what sort of seamanship is required and how you measure up. A good measure of success would be if the crew you sail with invites you back.

    The bottom line is people make mistakes, and the sea is a huge, and sometimes unforgiving classroom, one that many of us have had the opportunity to learn a great deal from in one way or another.
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    to those breathless for a quote from a survivor - go outside and get some fresh air. seriously.

    to those shit-talking all yacht and tall ship crew for working in an insular world - that's pretty ironic.

    walbridge is guilty for sure. too bad this otherwise valuable forum has a tendency to devolve into self-righteous, quick-to-judge nonsense at the hands of a few.
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    Quote Originally Posted by flotsam View Post
    to those breathless for a quote from a survivor - go outside and get some fresh air. seriously.

    to those shit-talking all yacht and tall ship crew for working in an insular world - that's pretty ironic.

    walbridge is guilty for sure. too bad this otherwise valuable forum has a tendency to devolve into self-righteous, quick-to-judge nonsense at the hands of a few.
    whatever SIR...the truth will emerge whether crew talk or not but the fact that they aren't says volumes.

    also note that the truthseekers are not just here but also on the BOUNTY's Facebook page vis.

    BEWARE ...DO NOT BE DECEIVED !!!! ...The ship /organization is owned by a new york businessman who just put $$$ millions into restorations of this ship just days before it was deliberately steered directly into one of the largest hurricanes in history. He will file for untold millions in insurance claims. The only thing I see BOUNTY writing now is a huge hand out for Your money. This was a suicide mission for BOUNTY , and WHOEVER gave the orders to put this ship at Hatteras in this storm will be found out in time. I would not donate a penny to this Organization until the investigation has been completed and the truth comes out. Wait to see a crew member come forward asking for mone for his or herself . DON"T DONATE A PENNY TO THIS OUTFIT DIRECTLY !!
    The crew no doubt has been paid well to NOT talk of this suicide mission for the BOUNTY . Sadly, it was no accident that this ship was deliberately directed to steer directly into one of the largest hurricanes in history. You can read every post here on this entire website and see that every seasoned Captain as well as 99.9 % of the general posters here said the Captain was insane to attempt to take that old wooden ship through Cape Hatteras during a hurricane.
    But , they stayed their course and the ORGANIZATION posted to try and calm the fears and hystaria of all the posters here that tried to save the lives of the crew members and teh fat eof the Ship, and still the Captain steered He into the storm . They kept Her close to enough to land and far enough away from the eye to ensure the Crew were rescued. Unfortunately, hurricanes are unpredictable, and a 30 ft wave swept 3 souls away, and only two were recovered, and two lost their lives. This journey and end result was no accident. No sane human drives into a hurricane with a old wooden boat !!! Not unless there is something to gain. This was clearly a suicide mission for the TALL SHIP named BOUNTY !
    Sarah, when you take an old wooden boat to sea in a storm the size of Sandy the ship is beat up by the waves and the seams will be stressed and begin to leak. It's a disaster waiting to happen. When you couple that with mechanical failure there is no more waiting, the disaster happens. My heart aches for the harrowing experience the crew suffered and the death of of Claudene Christian. But I don't think that explains the decision to take Bounty to sea and sail her in the direction of a monster hurricane, nor does the crew's willingness to go excuse the death of one sailor and the other 14 having to be rescued in the midst of a perfect storm. For the record, I am a tall ship sailor and I am married to a captain with almost 30 years experience. I have loved Barkentine Gazela since the day I first laid eyes on her in 1985, but I would not give my life for her. My heart is broken over the loss of Bounty and her crew.
    Why would you set sail with the back up generator not functioning on a clear day let alone out to the path of a hurricane?
    Let's not be critical... or ask questions or demand accountability.
    It is a veritable feeding frenzy going on there now with accusations, denials, name calling and otherwise a whole stinking bag of shit where there are many more before these and will be many, many more ahead...this is going to be a long and drawn out saga but the truth will emerge as it must in the end
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    That's understandable. They've been thru a trial. They will give their stories eventually.
    Social media like Facebook and Twitter give people license to be a-holes and I can't hold it against any one of the crew to keep mum for right now. Who needs that bs.

    The truth will, I hope, come out soon though.
    I, like many of you, have dealt with shipboard catastrophe and the immediate reactions are a real study in human nature.
    Plus the lawyers may have made some influential comments, if you know what I mean. So while we all yearn for the answers right now, we need to keep those things in mind.

    Speaking of calamity and lawyers. This is how these suits can get under your skin.

    One of the ships I was responsible for as a port engineer had a major fire in a US dry dock. The steering flat was all but destroyed. In that flat were electrical panels that were all hand built and had to be recreated from scratch. Cables and transformers were destroyed. Steel was warped and distorted. Consumables were destroyed. Soot was everywhere and it was a mess. The ship reeked for a long time thereafter. The stink was in my pores and hair and clothes and up my nose. It just sucked.

    One Engineer was on watch that night. He sounded the alarm and tried to fight the fire. The shipyard firemain had no pressure at the manifold. He used portable CO2 way past the incipient stage while frantic to get help. It was around 3 AM.

    We were screwed. The Engineers saved the day until the local FD took over. Fortunately most were asleep on board and woke when the duty engineer alerted them. The FD did work hard and I credit them with saving the ship (more later) but their lack of shipboard fire fighting experience ruined a lot of electrical shit Including the elevator. I don't want to tell you what came of that other than my exhausted electrician quit. Can't blame him either.

    The immediate aftermath was hell on earth. The f-ing lawyers sent their surveyors and we all had to pussyfoot around them while dealing with the Arson Squad, Fire Dept and ATF. Did I mention that nobody from my home office showed up for TWO WEEKS? How hard is it to fly a 600 mile domestic US leg? Two weeks they waited. Yes you read that right. Imagine the Governor of a state destroyed by hurricane and all that fool asks for are photos. I took photos and they (my op co) complained that they were "too dark" and I had to explain to them, hey genius, the lights in here melted and everything is black with soot. Fire. Hello? What part of "the ship burned and we could use your support" don't you get? Man I'm still bitter over

    So we drank a big ole mug of STFU. Not to hide anything. There was nothing to hide on OUR end. But the company, the P&I Club, Class, the CG, the Arson Squad, the shipyard (which was the guilty party), the ATF (yes), were all looking for a target.

    For shipyard negligence. Lack of a fire watch.

    Notably absent was OSHA and I unloaded on one of their guys at a safety conference a month later.

    So f yeah, I can understand why these people might be a little hesitant to talk just now. We had only minor injuries. They had injuries and fatalities.

    I'm in Charleston posting this from my phone. I've had a cup or three of wine. Hey, hug your kids, spouse, the bosun, the dog, the cat, whoever and have a happy Halloween.
    VOTE NO INCUMBENTS!
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    Quote Originally Posted by c.captain View Post
    I've never been of the opinion that the Royal Navy generally or the Admiralty specifically had every been a bastion of free thinking and enlightened thought. They clung to terrible ideas for centuries out of the ridiculous believe that "tradition" would conquer all. Scheer never should have run for the shelter at Wilemshaven after Jutland. If he kept his fleet out in the North Sea, he's have plastered the Grand Fleet the next day with fools like Beattie leading the "Charge of the Light Brigade".

    Of course, I don't believe American men of war in the era of sail were any better!
    "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    Found this on the Bounty's Facebook page. No idea if the poster knows this to be the truth but if it is the U.S.C.G. and lawyers will have a field day with the Owners.

    there are two motor/generators and two engines on the Bounty. One MG was in continuous use because the other MG was broken and had been that way for at least a year. The running MG was never turned off even in port because they "were afraid it wouldn't start again" if they shut it down. There is a water tight door below the galley however there is a 1' x 2' gap underneath the WTD which wouldn't seal. The aft mast was broken from the previous storm they endured. There was little or no way to keep water from going into the ship via the deck because there were no hatches on the deck. The bottom line is that the ship was in very poor mechanical condition even to the most ignorant of inspectors. It certainly should not have been taken into rough seas.
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    Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

    Quote Originally Posted by c.captain View Post
    Steamer...I know this is taking a diversion from the track of this thread but I must protest your using the term "nautical thespians" when the men and women who crew yachts are no different.
    I carefully chose to use "thespians" because it suits the performance of the captain (the star) and the crew (the cast) so well. Tallships are theater, purely and simply, they are a traveling circus of costumed performers who live their role and learn to believe their own mythology.


    Megayachts are not built to be "seaboats" just as the BOUNTY wasn't.
    Ah, but there you are wrong. Large yachts are built to very high standards of safety and seakeeping. Most large yachts make at least two transatlantic crossings each year and many are on and have been on multi-year global circumnavigations. Many of the larger yachts are now crewed (at least at the senior level) by commercially trained and experienced mariners who moved over to the bright side from cruise ships or boxboats.

    Yachting is also theater, I have always said that and firmly believe it but, excluding the sailing fraternity, is moving toward a more commercial model as yachts grow larger. This is particularly true since the regulatory environment is identical to commercial shipping with ISM, STCW, SOLAS, ISPS, MLC, Safe manning, and the full alphabet of class and statutory certificate requirements we deal with on a boxboat. Large yachts are legally a cargo ship as far as the law is concerned.

    Like any ship, including the QE2 or a Maersk supership, if a yacht is driven too hard into bad weather it is at risk. I mentioned the yacht YOGI that sank earlier this year in the Aegean, it is (in my opinion) as much a classic example of incompetence and ignorance as the Bounty. It sank ingloriously in a February storm while being overdriven to make a schedule and to this date, not one word has been uttered by the crew, owner, Class or Flag as to why or how this happened. Unlike the airline industry where the loss of an aircraft may reflect potential safety risks to all who fly or live on the surface of the Earth, shipping is a closed industry where we are legally prohibited from knowing the reason a ship was lost if the crew is embarrassed or a government might be forced to admit errors in training or oversight or lose political face by not taking action. Bounty was not a crude oil carrier and did not foul the Carolina or Virginia beaches and it did not kill a family member of a prominent politician. It might embarrass or threaten a person with political connections though. The next few weeks will tell us a lot about the CG and the circus boat industry. Unlike the Costa Concordia, the Bounty is not visible to millions and except for a few readers here, will probably fade from memory very quickly, which is what the CG and the tallships industry and its followers are probably praying for.
    Last edited by Steamer; November 1st, 2012 at 03:53 AM.
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