HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

[cappy208]

Who was it that bailed off at New London? There have been posts to the BOUNTY Facebook page by a man who claims that this person left because of the second generator not being functional. Unfounded speculation of provable fact?

Unfortunately the person who commented on the generator sitrep has decided to not post again. Also, another poster stated conflicting info about the generators that confused the issue.

But the really interesting info would be to find out who bailed in NL? Time will tell.

[steelbeach]

The info about the crew abandoning and entering the rafts seems to be everybody's experience during bad weather and trying to get into and function in standard survival suits
I've been sailing transient on fishermen (uninspected) last handful of years.
So bought a Mustang Ice Comm to make sure of having a decent chance.
Made a big difference to my mobility having gloves and boots and able to work a submersible handheld.
P.T.L.have only used it during drills and you can imagine I'm the source of entertainment for the rest of the gang !
Next trip will have a personal EPIRB attached
Can't help thinking EPIRB or VHF could have tipped the outcome to favor the crew in this one

[Topsail]

If I was the underwriter, I'd sure as hell be damned sure to not be paying out one penny in a claim settlement until the USCG formal investigation is complete and reports made public. Willful disregard for the practice of good seamanship on the part of Walbridge may well negate the obligation of the insurers to pay anything to the owner. He is their direct agent and they are responsible for him even if there is no paper or email trail that shows that they ordered him to depart which I fear there might have been but may have been destroyed by now.

Who was it that bailed off at New London? There have been posts to the BOUNTY Facebook page by a man who claims that this person left because of the second generator not being functional. Unfounded speculation of provable fact?

Consideration of payment or the premium against loss or damage cause by maritime perils.

Peril of the seas:

A peril of the sea must be perils which could not be foreseen or guarded against as probable incidents of the intended voyage. It is a damage occurring at sea and nobody's fault.

Where there is an accidental incursion of seawater into a vessel or part of the vessel, and in a manner, where seawater is not expected to enter in the ordinary course of things, and there is consequent damage to the thing insured, there is prima facie a loss by perils of the sea. The accident may consist in some negligent act, such as improper opening of a valve, or a hole made in a pipe by mischance, or it may be that seawater is admitted by stress of weather or some like cause bringing the sea over openings ordinarily not exposed to the sea or, even without stress of weather, by the vessel heeling over owing to some accident, or by the breaking of hatches or other coverings. These are merely a few amongst many possible instances in which there may be a fortuitous incursion of seawater. It is the fortuitous entry of the seawater which is the peril of the sea in such cases. Whether in any particular case there is such a loss is a question of fact for the jury."

They do not protect, for example, against that natural and inevitable action of the winds and waves, which results in what may be described as wear and tear. There must be some casualty, something which could not be foreseen as one of the necessary incidents of the adventure. The purpose of the policy is to secure an indemnity against accidents which may happen, not against events which must happen

A loss occasioned by leakage, which is caused by rats gnawing a hole in the bottom of the vessel, is not deemed a loss by peril of the sea, or by inevitable casualty. But if the master had used all reasonable precautions to prevent such loss, as by having a cat on board, it seems agreed, it would be a peril of the sea, or inevitable accident.

Inchmaree clause:

In marine insurance, the Inchmaree clause is an extension of cover to include damage or loss due to latent causes such as breakage of the ship's drive shafts, bursting of its boilers, unseen defects in its hull, machinery, and auxiliary equipment; as well as due to errors in navigation, or negligence of its captain, officers, engineers, crew, pilots, etc. It is named after the ship Inchmaree involved in a landmark 1887 case (Thames & Mersey Marine Insurance Co. v. Hamilton, Fraser & Co.) where a UK court declared that the above causes do not fit the definition of all other perils, losses or misfortunes but ... provided that such loss or damage is not due to lack of diligence by the assured.

[c.captain]

I am trying to find appropriate legal citations to highlight the definition of the "ordinary practice of good seamanship" and what constitutes negligence. So far I have this but I know there is much more to tap.

As applied to this case, negligence may be defined as the
failure to exercise such precautions or degree of care as a
reasonably prudent Master would exercise under the same
circumstances. In other word, a Master is not required to make the
right decision at all times in order to avoid being guilty of
negligence; but he must exercise reasonable care according to the
standards of the ordinary practice of good seamanship rather than
to indulge in acts of imprudent seamanship. Hence, by making a
wrong choice among alternatives, a Master commits an error of
judgment which does not amount to negligence if his choice was one
which a competent and prudent Master might reasonably have made
under the prevailing circumstances. However, many laws and
regulations merely emphasize the general standards of good
seamanship established by the courts on the basis of the general
principles of maritime law which, in turn, are the outgrowth of,
and built up from, the practices of mariners over a period of
hundreds of years and the requirements of due care to prevent
collisions at sea.

so Inchmaree might let the owners off unless it is somehow shown that they forced the master to use negligent judgement. This clause cannot be so absolute to put 100% or responsibility of a master who has gone "rogue"...can it?

[Topsail]

The reasonable person.

A person has acted negligently if she has departed from the conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances. A reasonable person is a skilled, competent, and experienced person who engages in the same activity.

In other words, if you would have been the vessel’s operator manager, would you have accepted the proposed passage planning considering the caracteristics of the vessel involved, the manning level and experience of the crew against the prevailing weather forecast. Probably not. So if you do not have an extension of cover to include damage or loss due to errors in navigation or negligence of its captain, officers, engineers, crew ... you will have to request donations !

[c.captain]

The reasonable person.

A person has acted negligently if she has departed from the conduct expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances. A reasonable person is a skilled, competent, and experienced person who engages in the same activity.

In other words, if you would have been the vessel’s operator manager, would you have accepted the proposed passage planning considering the caracteristics of the vessel involved, the manning level and experience of the crew against the prevailing weather forecast. Probably not. So if you do not have an extension of cover to include damage or loss due to errors in navigation or negligence of its captain, officers, engineers, crew ... you will have to request donations !

But the operator/manager/owner did accept all voyage factors that you list and had clear and present knowledge of the vessel's track in relation to the forecast track of Sandy. If they accepted and did not order the master to take his vessel to shelter, how does that effect their own liability against "reasonable person" and ultimate claim of loss under an Act of God/Peril of the Sea?

[Topsail]

I don't know, but I think that there will be some very serious questions to address before an agreement is acheive.

• Did the peril could not be foreseen or guarded against, at nobody's fault, as probable incidents of the intended voyage,
• Where there an accidental incursion of seawater into a vessel, and in a manner, where seawater is not expected to enter in the ordinary course of things,
• Did her Master acted negligently as he departed from the skilled, competent and experienced conduct, expected of a reasonably prudent person acting under similar circumstances and engaged in the same activity,
• Did the management exercised Due Diligence or care in the research, analysis and the preparation of the intended voyage that a reasonable person would exercise to avoid harm to other persons or their property,
• Etc., etc.

These are merely a few amongst many possible instances whether in any particular case of such a loss, is a question of fact for the ... jury.

[Topsail]

After a traumatic experience, it's normal to feel frightened, sad, anxious, and disconnected. But if the upset doesn't fade and you feel stuck with a constant sense of danger and painful memories, you may be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It can seem like you'll never get over what happened or feel normal again.

Cognitive-behavioral therapy for PTSD and trauma involves carefully and gradually “exposing” yourself to thoughts, feelings, and situations that remind you of the trauma. Therapy also involves identifying upsetting thoughts about the traumatic event–particularly thoughts that are distorted and irrational—and replacing them with more balanced picture.
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can make you feel disconnected from others. You may be tempted to withdraw from social activities and your loved ones. But it’s important to stay connected to life and the people who care about you. Support from other people is vital to your recovery from PTSD, so ask your close friends and family members for their help during this tough time.

It’s only natural to want to avoid painful memories and feelings. But if you try to numb yourself and push your memories away, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) will only get worse. You can’t escape your emotions completely—they emerge under stress or whenever you let down your guard—and trying to do so is exhausting. The avoidance will ultimately harm your relationships, your ability to function, and the quality of your life.


http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post..._treatment.htm

[ChiefRob]

The info about the crew abandoning and entering the rafts seems to be everybody's experience during bad weather and trying to get into and function in standard survival suits

Can't help thinking EPIRB or VHF could have tipped the outcome to favor the crew in this one

This is a copy from the D.O.D web site it says very clearly they had a EPIRB and VHF's that is what the coast guard was responding to. www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=118377


Coast Guard Rescues 14 ‘Bounty’ Sinking Victims
By Christopher Lagan
U.S. Coast Guard Compass Blog

WASHINGTON, Oct. 30, 2012 – During an Oct. 29 U.S. Coast Guard search-and-rescue operation associated with Hurricane Sandy, 14 people who'd abandoned the sinking HMS Bounty tall ship were rescued from life rafts in the Atlantic Ocean approximately 90 miles southeast of Hatteras, N.C.


A Coast Guard rescue swimmer approaches one of two lifeboats Oct. 29, 2012, where the crew of HMS Bounty sought shelter after abandoning ship in the Atlantic Ocean approximately 90 miles southeast of Hatteras, N.C. Screenshot from U.S. Coast Guard video
(Click photo for screen-resolution image);high-resolution image available.

The search continues for two people who remain missing from the Bounty’s crew.

The owner of the 180-foot, three-mast tall ship HMS Bounty, a replica of the original British transport vessel built for the 1962 film “Mutiny on the Bounty” starring Marlon Brando, contacted Coast Guard Sector North Carolina after losing communication with the crew late Sunday evening.

The 5th Coast Guard District command center in Portsmouth, Va., subsequently received a signal from the emergency distress position indicating radio beacon registered to the Bounty confirming the distress and position.

A Coast Guard search airplane was launched from U.S. Coast Guard Air Station Elizabeth City, N.C., Sunday evening which established communication with the Bounty’s crew upon arriving on scene. The vessel was reportedly sinking in 18-foot seas accompanied by 40-mph winds.

By the time two Coast Guard rescue helicopters dispatched from the Elizabeth City station arrived on scene Oct. 29 at approximately 6:30 a.m., the 16 crew members had reportedly divided among two 25-man lifeboats and were wearing cold weather survival suits and life jackets. Air crews located and rescued 14 of the 16 crew members.

The HMS Bounty is reportedly sunk but the mast is still visible.

A Coast Guard search airplane and two rescue helicopters are searching for the two remaining crew members with Coast Guard Cutters Elm and Gallatin en route to assist with the search.

[c.captain]

After a traumatic experience, it's normal to feel frightened, sad, anxious, and disconnected. But if the upset doesn't fade and you feel stuck with a constant sense of danger and painful memories, you may be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It can seem like you'll never get over what happened or feel normal again.

And you believe that PTSD is why the survivors are not talking? Must have been one pretty horrible night without the calm reassurance of a competent master to allay people's natural terror and fright of being aboard a ship that is foundering in a storm.

As bait for Bill Daugherty, I still believe that events occurred that night that are even worse than my tame statement above. It is more that clear from the fact that the survivors are silent that Walbridge was no hero out there!


WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED THAT NIGHT?

[Bayrunner]

Does anyone know if its still floating around out there or did it completely sink?

[Topsail]

Cognitive-behavioral therapy for PTSD and trauma involves carefully and gradually “exposing” yourself to thoughts, feelings, and situations that remind you of the trauma.

You may be tempted to withdraw from social activities and your loved ones. But it’s important to stay connected to life and the people who care about you.

But if you try to numb yourself and push your memories away, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) will only get worse.

What I think is that the crew should start to talk easy about the shipwreck. It would help to recover from that frightening experience. I think by trying to expose the truth to prevent such an occurence to repeat in the near future, we are the real people who care.

[Topsail]

And you believe that PTSD is why the survivors are not talking? Must have been one pretty horrible night without the calm reassurance of a competent master to allay people's natural terror and fright of being aboard a ship that is foundering in a storm.

As bait for Bill Daugherty, I still believe that events occurred that night that are even worse than my tame statement above. It is more that clear from the fact that the survivors are silent that Walbridge was no hero out there!


[B]WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED THAT NIGHT?[/B ]

Master or Guru ?

Guru (Devanagari गुरु) is a Sanskrit term for "teacher" or "master", especially in Indian religions. The Hindu guru-shishya tradition is the oral tradition or religious doctrine transmitted from teacher to student. In the United States, the meaning of "guru" has been used to cover anyone who acquires followers, especially by exploiting their naiveté, due to the inflationary use of the term in new religious movements ... (or other movements).

The enlightened master who derives his authority from his experience, such as achieving enlightenment. This type appears in bhakti movements and in tantra and asks for unquestioning obedience, and can have Western followers. Westerners can even become one, as have, for example Andrew Cohen, and Isaac Shapiro.

[AHTS Master]

And you believe that PTSD is why the survivors are not talking? Must have been one pretty horrible night without the calm reassurance of a competent master to allay people's natural terror and fright of being aboard a ship that is foundering in a storm.

As bait for Bill Daugherty, I still believe that events occurred that night that are even worse than my tame statement above. It is more that clear from the fact that the survivors are silent that Walbridge was no hero out there!


WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED THAT NIGHT?

I believe the Info will slowly start oozing out and eventually the stool softener will kick in.

[c.captain]

Master or Guru ?

Guru (Devanagari गुरु) is a Sanskrit term for "teacher" or "master", especially in Indian religions. The Hindu guru-shishya tradition is the oral tradition or religious doctrine transmitted from teacher to student. In the United States, the meaning of "guru" has been used to cover anyone who acquires followers, especially by exploiting their naiveté, due to the inflationary use of the term in new religious movements ... (or other movements).

The enlightened master who derives his authority from his experience, such as achieving enlightenment. This type appears in bhakti movements and in tantra and asks for unquestioning obedience, and can have Western followers. Westerners can even become one, as have, for example Andrew Cohen, and Isaac Shapiro.

Haven't we already covered Kumbaya Circle Jerk?



I am certainly beginning to believe Walbridge was every bit as much of a phoney as the good Bhagwan himself

[Topsail]

..........

[ChiefRob]

I found this on ABC news, it seems that not everyone in the TSC community thinks it was sane decision to sail into a hurricane. Even the former captain. I don't think it is a suprize to anyone on here though.







Cathy Carey of Nova Scotia is a former president of the Society of Preservation of the HMS Bounty and said the last time she saw the ship it looked "well taken care of and I felt really good about the whole thing."

But she wondered why Walbridge was on the ocean with all the warnings about the looming superstorm.

"He knew the storm was coming, for a couple of weeks. He had plenty of time to know," she said. "He shouldn't have gone out there, but it's all hindsight now."

Hugh Boyd, 77, a former Bounty captain for 16 years, echoed Carey in wondering why Walbridge took the ship out as a hurricane approached.

"I'm so sorry he went out in this weather to risk the lives of him and his crew," Boyd said. "It was very risky business."

The former captain said he was devastated by the news of its sinking. He said he had been fielding phone calls all day from about 40 former crew members all who lamented the ship's loss.





HMS Bounty Sinks in Sandy Wrath Watch Video







Hurricane Sandy Sinks Replica Three-mast Ship Watch Video







Hurricane Sandy Sinks HMS Bounty, Two People Missing Watch Video



"She was so special to many of us, very, very special," he said. "We were so proud to be a part of it and now to hear that she's gone, it's a disaster. This is upsetting, very, upsetting."

[Steamer]

This Bounty thing has really stirred up a lot of people all across the board and reading the posts on various forums is enlightening and sometimes amusing but some of the stuff from the recreational crowd sends a chill up your spine. A good result though is that gCaptain is getting some mention as a source of professional insights and comment. Heaven only knows how many of their readers faint away like 19th century school girls when they come across the pointy stick style of seafaring criticism. They don't seem to appreciate facts that are much blunter than a plastic sailboat's bow.

There was a good discussion going on in a "trawler" site (which included a link to gCaptain) where one of the members was being praised for the high quality of his seamanship after putting his family aboard a little plastic "trawler" boat and setting anchor in shallow water someplace on Long Island. He believed that if anything happened the water wasn't deep enough to completely cover the boat and if the anchor dragged and they went ashore they could just walk off. A few people condemned his actions but they were shouted down by the huge majority who went so far as to echo the exact words we have been reading about the late Mr. Walbridge - that the guy was a hero and made the right decision - and for protecting his "crew"/family. Tthe fact that he survived is proof to them that he is a superior seaman. The fact that the guy admits to just hanging on for dear life and did nothing other than be a passenger while the storm raged doesn't seem to enter into it.

If nothing else this whole Bounty affair is showing us that there really is a gulf between the recreational (including the TSC) hobbyist and the professional mariner. These guys are really really scary, a lot scarier than I ever believed they were. I think this storm has opened a few eyes but unfortunately it seems to have driven some of the survivors into a deeper defensive position, from fear or just embarrassment I don't know.

[jdcavo]

...is a question of fact for the ... jury.

Not in an admiralty case in federal court, there are no juries.

[water]

The surviving crew members were on the ABC morning show this morning. No details given of the problems they were having aboard that lead to the sinking.