Application of "Oceans" to Licenses and "Towing" Endorsements

**curtgetz** · April 23rd, 2012, 08:42 PM

I have requested that “oceans” be added to my already issued 1600ton Masters’ license, I am also requesting that oceans be added to a new “towing” endorsement in the same application. However my NMC evaluator has stated that it is not possible to add an ocean towing endorsement while at the same time adding oceans to an existing license? Really????

Looking into CFR 11.464 I see no reason it would not be possible to add oceans to an existing license at the same time as adding oceans to a new license endorsement . Wrong?

Anyone ever experienced this?

Curt

**Capt. Phoenix** · April 24th, 2012, 03:55 AM

I can't say for sure but that doesn't seem right to me. If you hold a 1600 ton master oceans you should automatically get a master of towing oceans. (Same for mate.) As long as you did a nc/ocean TOAR...

**BMCSRetired** · April 24th, 2012, 05:40 AM

Master of Towing is not a STCW endorsement. It is only domestic endorsement.

**curtgetz** · April 24th, 2012, 07:06 AM

I am working on a large tug that often makes trips to Canada. I did complete a oceans/NC TOAR.

**BMCSRetired** · April 24th, 2012, 08:37 AM

Kudos to you cg for reading the cfr's...

I have the master of towing rating umlimited too, but in Int'l Maritime law/STCW there must be an equivalent for a US endorsement to be considered Oceans. For example, to get an Oceans endorsement in the United States you have to pass the celestial part of the exams that meets IMO standards. I may be wrong on towing and if I am I am wrong I will get smashed quickly.

Towing is similar to DP. For DP the Nautical Institute in London is the international standard recognized for DP but there is no reference to it any license. Additionally, the TOAR was never submitted to the International Maritime Organization for approval and the coordinator of this for the USCG has no practical towing experience only a background in marine inspection. It does not make any sense but there it is.

The new recommendations from the Manila Conference changes that coming in the Oceans/Int'l licenses will require classes for certain endorsements (towing, osv, research vessels, etc...) and there may be no grandfathering, That is why anybody renewing recently got that letter about responsibility for completing required STCW courses. Towing may be in there and I am not sure if the US TOAR will be submitted for approval to the IMO. We all may have to find an "approved" school to get the "required" training to prove we can tow internationally under the new requirements.

Standing by to be "corrected"...

**Capt. Phoenix** · April 24th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Towing is not stcw but you still can get an oceans towing license, I have one. I was told by my evaluate at the time that if I get an ocean license I automatically qualify for an ocean towing license.

**curtgetz** · April 24th, 2012, 11:32 AM

Holding a 1600ton master oceans along with a towing endorsement I can operate a towing vessel on an ocean route?

**BMCSRetired** · April 24th, 2012, 01:14 PM

Its complicated but as far as I am concerned to "legally" do it you need to pass the celestial exam for 1600 master. The only reason they say Oceans on the TOAR is so nobody thinks they can't tow overseas.

Most countries will segregate US towing vessels when they get overseas if they only have two officers even if it is listed as such on the COI. Most require a minimum of 8 hour watches (3 officers) due to the IMO regulations which the US cherry picks on. That is why US tugs are on the "hot list" of other countries.

**Diesel** · April 24th, 2012, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by BMCSRetired

Master of Towing is not a STCW endorsement. It is only domestic endorsement.

Yes and no...your STCW will state "valid for service on uninspected towing vessels" and will be endorsed for whatever routes you are qualified for be it Oceans or NC, but you hold a Towing endorsement so you obviously know this.

**Capt. Phoenix** · April 24th, 2012, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by BMCSRetired

Its complicated but as far as I am concerned to "legally" do it you need to pass the celestial exam for 1600 master. The only reason they say Oceans on the TOAR is so nobody thinks they can't tow overseas.

Most countries will segregate US towing vessels when they get overseas if they only have two officers even if it is listed as such on the COI. Most require a minimum of 8 hour watches (3 officers) due to the IMO regulations which the US cherry picks on. That is why US tugs are on the "hot list" of other countries.

I don't think they will give you an ocean towing license without having an ocean license as well. I'm not saying you can sail oceans with a near coastal license and an ocean toar, but that with an nc/ocean toar he should automatically get master of towing oceans when he gets his 1600 ton master ocean.

**curtgetz** · April 24th, 2012, 07:18 PM

I have recently passed the celestial navigation exam for my 1600ton master. I am requesting that "oceans" added to my existing masters' license and new towing endorsement.

**jdcavo** · April 25th, 2012, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by curtgetz

I have requested that “oceans” be added to my already issued 1600ton Masters’ license, I am also requesting that oceans be added to a new “towing” endorsement in the same application. However my NMC evaluator has stated that it is not possible to add an ocean towing endorsement while at the same time adding oceans to an existing license? Really???? Looking into CFR 11.464 I see no reason it would not be possible to add oceans to an existing license at the same time as adding oceans to a new license endorsement . Wrong? Anyone ever experienced this? Curt

You can do both. As far as STCW, the officer endorsement (license) and STCW are separate endorsements and you get an officer endorsement without meeting the associated parts of STCW, you just won;'t get the STCW. But, in this case you already hold the appropriate STCW (for Master 1600 GRT).

**jdcavo** · April 25th, 2012, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by curtgetz

I am working on a large tug that often makes trips to Canada. I did complete a oceans/NC TOAR.

Canada is different. The United States has an agreement with Canada that if you hold the proper credentials to operate in the U.S., you can operate in similar warters/vessels in Canada.

**capitan1962** · April 25th, 2012, 06:52 AM

Mine says Master - Of Towing Vessels Upon Oceans and Western Rivers

**jdcavo** · April 25th, 2012, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by BMCSRetired

Its complicated but as far as I am concerned to "legally" do it you need to pass the celestial exam for 1600 master. The only reason they say Oceans on the TOAR is so nobody thinks they can't tow overseas....

Sort of. The reason is that while we will. issue towing vessel endorsements for either oceans or near coastal, the towing specific skills are similar and thus the same TOAR that works for near coastal will suffice for oceans.

**curtgetz** · April 25th, 2012, 08:10 AM

Thanks gentleman for your insight.

**BMCSRetired** · April 25th, 2012, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by capitan1962

Mine says Master - Of Towing Vessels Upon Oceans and Western Rivers

As far as I know, Oceans trumps everything though Mr. Cavo will set me straight.

**shaq** · April 25th, 2012, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by BMCSRetired

As far as I know, Oceans trumps everything though Mr. Cavo will set me straight.

I believe western rivers is no longer a subordinate route and requires observation days before it is added to any license

**Capt. Phoenix** · April 25th, 2012, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by shaq

I believe western rivers is no longer a subordinate route and requires observation days before it is added to any license

Correct, thats the way it is with towing licenses. Master of towing oceans does not allow one to tow on western rivers. It requires completion of a separate western rivers TOAR and 90 days on western rivers to get master of towing western rivers.

**Diesel** · April 25th, 2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Capt. Phoenix

Correct, thats the way it is with towing licenses. Master of towing oceans does not allow one to tow on western rivers. It requires completion of a separate western rivers TOAR and 90 days on western rivers to get master of towing western rivers.

yes, and there is with and without lockage