Mr. Cavo, please

**Capt.Mac** · April 9th, 2011, 10:51 PM

Mr. Cavo, could you please provide your expert opinion:
I took my Master 500/1600 Oceans exams, and due to my sea service being on vessels under 100 tons I received a Master 500 Oceans license. I have since aquired the needed tonnage to upgrade to Master 1600 Oceans. In the meantime my basic/advanced firefighter certificate has gone past five years, to six years, at this time. I have been told that I will need to renew this certificate before applying for my upgrade. I cannot find this requirement in the CFR's.
What I did find was 46 CFR 10.207 (f) Firefighting certificate. Applicants for raise of grade of license who have not previously met the requirements in Sec. 10.205(g), must do so.
I believe that Sec. 10.205 (g) is for an orginal license applicant under 200 GT, and that it would not apply to me, as I currently hold a Master 500 GRT license, and held a current basic & advanced certificate when I received my license.
Anyway, I am sure this is something you have encountered before and thought I would go to the expert. Thank you again for your assistance.

**GOMariner** · April 10th, 2011, 02:14 AM

I just went through this a few months ago . I sent a letter using the same cfr references and explaining I have attended drills every week while working - No good so I had to take the advanced course again . At the end of the course the instructor said "this certificate does not have have a expiration date as long as you have current seatime and are involved in drills " I told him my situation and he said I should have appealed it . If your application period has gone over 90 days since it was evaluated you have to send in another application and pay for another evaluation.

**Jeffrox** · April 10th, 2011, 04:37 AM

I thought Advanced FF was a once a career thing, although one may be required to re-take Basic FF for one reason or another.

**captbbrucato** · April 10th, 2011, 07:18 AM

I had this question when I was getting my PIC endorsement. I didn't need to renew F/F for the endorsement, I already had advanced F/F and submitted it for an AB ticket way back when. An upgrade may well be a different matter....although I don't see why.
I'm hearing the new STCW rules are going to require F/F renewals every 5 years from our Compliance Dept. I hope they're wrong.

**Capt. Itchy** · April 10th, 2011, 08:36 AM

My understanding is that you need advanced FF within 5 years for an original. But a raise in grade doesn't unless you've not had it before. I upgraded from 1600 ton to unlimited with an advanced certificate that was 8 years old and got my PIC a year later. STCW Basic Safety Training with Basic FF is necessary within 5 years unless you've got documented sea time on a vessel conducting drills and training.

I'm pretty sure about that. Could be wrong. Or the rules could have changed. But it's worth exploring.

Good luck.

**DSV Captain** · April 10th, 2011, 09:51 AM

I too had the same problem I turned in Advanced firefighting years ago. They responded that I need FF within five years, I asked them to reconsider and they denied me again. On my appeal they approved me based on the argument that the five year requirement is for original licenses not for Raises in Grade. Appeal it copy and paste the relevant CFR to the appeal It worked for me

**jdcavo** · April 11th, 2011, 04:32 AM

If you are looking at something in Part 10, you're using an old CFR. The regulation change that created the MMC moved all the licensing stuff to Part 11. The provision you mention in 10.207(f) about if you haven't taken it previously doesn't appear to be in the new Part 11, at least I can't seem to find it. The only relevant part of the new Part 11 is 11.205(d), which is verbatim the old 10.207(f), which applies to an original license. I am not sure what the correct legal interpretation of the MMC reg change would be, while we omitted the requirement that specified a course wasn't required for a raise of grade if taken previously, the course requirement specifically applies to an original license. So it may be a plausible argument that it is now not required for ANY raise of grade, including a raise of grade from a license that didn't require advanced fire fighting for original issue, to a license that would require it for original issue. I'm not sure of the answer, I'll try to find out.

**Capt.Mac** · April 13th, 2011, 09:23 PM

Mr. Cavo,

Thank you for looking into this; from some of the other posts it would appear this is an issue not addressed as of yet. It is comforting to know, that when dealing with a large and sometimes impersonal bureaucratic organization such as the NMC, that we have someone like you, to sort the wheat from the chaff.
To the rest of you, who took your time to commiserate or offer suggestions, thank you also, fair winds and following seas.

**jdcavo** · April 14th, 2011, 05:39 AM

I'm not sure why I'm unable to edit and append to my earlier post. In the Federal Register that published the MMC rule we noted we did not intend and substantive changes apart from those associated with the TWIC and the new MMC. Had we intended to change the requirements for advanced fire fihting to require re-training, we would have been compelled to perform an economic impact analysis, none was done. So there was no intent to change the prevcous provision that on a raise in grade, advanced fire fighting was not required if met previously. And as I noted before, a plausible argument could be made that the apparently unintentional omission actually removed the requirement for cerain rqaises in grade,. but did not add any new requirement.