concern with training "not" listed

[TJ]

i recently received my mmc red book stickers.
i had submitted a number of endorsements.
i'm concerned over a course i took not being
credited, listed on the credentials.
i completed the 24-hour bridge resource management
in accordance with STCW-95 standard section A-VI/1,
table A-VIII standards regarding watch keeping and B-VIII.
i was told, in writing, BRM course was added to my "training
in our system" but will not be listed as rating on my credentials.

has anyone else experienced this?
what do you recommend?
is anyone aware where i can view/ track this "system"
do you know if this is a new standard?
on and where can i find a list of STCW codes?
how do you tell if it is a credential or just a "listed" skill??

thanks for your help and advice

[Azimuth]

From another thread on this subject submitted by Mr Cavo -
"VIII/2 is not an STCW certification/endorsement. It provides standards to be observed during watchkeeping. BRM is only one of several "knowledge and understanding and proficiency" for OICNW and Master. Note the language at the beginning of regulation VIII/2 "Administrations shall direct the attention of companies, masters, chief engineer officers..." and "Administrations shall require the master of every ship to ensure..."

Compare that to the language that begins regulations on certifications/endorsements, for example, OICNW (II/1) "Every officer in charge of a navigational watch shall..." or RFPNW (II/4) "Every candidate for certification shall..." These regulations go on to list the requirements to get the certification. VIII/2 just gives guidance on how tro stand a watch.

James D. Cavo
U.S. Coast Guard
Mariner Credentialing Program
Policy Division (CG-5434)
James.D.Cavo@uscg.mil"

[TJ]

i did see that.....i didn't wish to "jack" the other guys thread.
i' m guessing a better question is where i can find a listing of
"knowledge and understanding and proficiency" endorsements??

i'd still be interested in knowing where this got "listed"

i am interested in being credited for the 24 hours, i can't get that back after all.

T

[danzante]

I think I know what you are asking, but feel free to correct me if I'm off. You want to know where your 24 hour BRM training 'disappeared' to since it did not get listed on your MMC. The answer may frustrate you.

It didn't go anywhere, but it won't ever get listed on an MMC.

In order for you to get your OICNW, you had to complete both training AND assessments, as required by STCW. BRM is one of 16 subjects listed in NMC Policy Letter 01-02 as training required by STCW.

You don't see Ship Construction listed on your MMC either, but it is also required by 01-02, and again, won't be listed on an MMC. You needed the training for the OICNW. You have an OICNW, therefore, you took the training.

[TJ]

J. Russell- thanks, that certainly begins to answer my questions.

I'm really interested in seeing "16 subjects listed in NMC Policy Letter 01-02 as training required by STCW."
i was unable to access that link are these available elsewhere??

I was under the impression these Medical care provider, AB, Bridge Resource Management, Flashing
were endorsements necessary to test for 500 ton upgrade, are there other "unlisted" courses?

T

[jdcavo]

J. ...necessary to test for 500 ton upgrade, are there other "unlisted" courses? T

Policy Letter 01-02 applies to officer in charge of a navigational watch. But the point is the same, BRM is required training but it isn't an endorsement that is listed on your STCW.

"Other" unlisted courses? What courses for Master 500 are "unlisted"?

[TJ]

I've used incorrect terminology and further confused my issue.
I think what I'm trying to clarify is what, to me, was confusing.
I mistakenly believed all the classes I took would be in the MMC.
this caused my confusion.
now my query is, are there similar required training that will not be
listed on or in my MMC?
more specifically, are there any more that are "stand alone training" by that
i mean not embedded or included in another endorsement like the BRM?

this has been very helpful and I'm beginning to see the light!

thanks for all your professionalism and patience.
T

[jdcavo]

I've used incorrect terminology and further confused my issue.
I think what I'm trying to clarify is what, to me, was confusing.
I mistakenly believed all the classes I took would be in the MMC.
this caused my confusion.
now my query is, are there similar required training that will not be
listed on or in my MMC?
more specifically, are there any more that are "stand alone training" by that
i mean not embedded or included in another endorsement like the BRM?

this has been very helpful and I'm beginning to see the light!

thanks for all your professionalism and patience.
T

The MMC lists STCW endorsements, not the training you've had to get them. In some cases, the endorsement doesn't require any training, for example, RFPNW. In other cases, the endorsement can be obtained by a single course, for example Advanced Fire Fuighting, or Medical Care Provider. In other cases, it may take more than one course to get the endorsement, e.g. OICNW or Master. It's the endorsement we list, niot the training to get it.

The past issue was involved not listing certain endorsements because you held another endorsement that had as a prerequiste that you had first obtained another endorsement. For example, an MMC might not have listed Advanced Fire Fighting (VI/3) if you held OICNW (II/1) because you could not get OICNW unless you had advanced fire fighting. This was a case where the mariner qualified for an endorsement, but it wasn't listed as it was an "inherent" part of qualifying for the other endorsement. There were problems with this, among them that the mariner had qualified for an endorsement and it wasn't listed, and also because while in the U.S. we might require it to qualify for something else, that may not be true elsewhere in the world and other countries wille xpect to see the "lesser included" endorsement listed. Another way to look at this was if you could qualify for advanced fire fighting without being an OICNW, and would have it listed on your MMC, then it should still be listed if you get OICNW, For the most part, this has been resolved and we are putting all of the endorsements a mariner qualifies for on their MMC.

Bridge Resource Management is different. While it's required training to qualify for certain endorsements, it's not itself an endorsement. It's just one of the things you must do to get an endorsement. This was what I tried to explain with my discussion of the language in the various STCW regulations. Generally, if the regulation says that "candidate for certification shall" it's an endorsementand the regulation specifies what the mariner must do to get the endorsement. If the reguilation has language like "Administrations shall..." it's not an endorsement, it's something that countries that are parties to STCW must do tenfortce and comply with STCW.

So BRM is not an endorsement and doesn't go on the MMC. I don't think there are any other countries that would consider VIII/2 to be an endorsement that should be listed on the STCW document.

Hopefully this is a little clearer.

[TJ]

J.D.C thank you so much for that
very clear and informative response.
it looks like i'll be getting permission to test for my
500 master upgrade in mid February.
i hope you won't mind me utilizing your wealth of knowledge
again.
i'll repeat, many thanks to you and this site.
T

[seadawg]

Bridge Resource Management is different. While it's required training to qualify for certain endorsements, it's not itself an endorsement. It's just one of the things you must do to get an endorsement. This was what I tried to explain with my discussion of the language in the various STCW regulations. Generally, if the regulation says that "candidate for certification shall" it's an endorsement and the regulation specifies what the mariner must do to get the endorsement. If the regulation has language like "Administrations shall..." it's not an endorsement, it's something that countries that are parties to STCW must do tenforce and comply with STCW.

So BRM is not an endorsement and doesn't go on the MMC. I don't think there are any other countries that would consider VIII/2 to be an endorsement that should be listed on the STCW document.

Hopefully this is a little clearer.

IMHO..kind of like being "implied or inherent"??"I sees says the blind man"!!

[jdcavo]

IMHO..kind of like being "implied or inherent"??"I sees says the blind man"!!

No. We (now) list all endorsements a mariner is qualified for, but only endorsements. BRM is not an endorsement and thus will not be listed.