Renewing or upgrading 6000 GT OSV license

[JP]

I just heard a rumor today that I hope someone can tell me is not really true. If it is, I have just wasted over 7 years of my time and $50,000 of my money to upgrade to unlimited chief mate according to the USCG new STCW rules put into effect in 2002. Can someone please tell me if it is true that if a person gets a 6000 ton large OSV license and then sails on a vessel over 1600 tons (OSV or other type), can that person then apply to the Coast Guard for an unlimited license??? I heard someone just did that and received an unlimited master license since he had been sailing as master on an unlimited vessel (using his 6000 ton large OSV license). Mr Cavo, can you verify???

[anchorman]

I just heard a rumor today that I hope someone can tell me is not really true. If it is, I have just wasted over 7 years of my time and $50,000 of my money to upgrade to unlimited chief mate according to the USCG new STCW rules put into effect in 2002. Can someone please tell me if it is true that if a person gets a 6000 ton large OSV license and then sails on a vessel over 1600 tons (OSV or other type), can that person then apply to the Coast Guard for an unlimited license??? I heard someone just did that and received an unlimited master license since he had been sailing as master on an unlimited vessel (using his 6000 ton large OSV license). Mr Cavo, can you verify???

I would not say that, but I was issued the very first Large OSV 6,000 ton ITC license back in 1997. Today, I'm an unlimited Master. Of course, you can apply for an unlimited license as well as upgrade, you could before there was an OSV license. Soon, you will be able to go from 1600 ton Master straight to Chief Mate...bypassing 3rd and 2nd all together.

Sorry, you're so late to the party, but hundreds of mariner have used this route as a stepping stone to unlimited licenses. At the end of the day, you don't save much money going one route over the other. STCW applies to everyone, but the hawespipe is still an option - just expensive for everyone, not just the Academy guys.

Just to clarify. An OSV license is a restricted license to OSV's which have a very finite roll and skill-set. You cannot sail as an unlimited master on an unlimited boat with an 6,000 ton OSV license on anything but an OSV, but you do have the authority to sail as master/mate specifically by the restriction of your license.

Just to clarify again, you could always upgrade from 1600ton Mater to 3rd Mate anyway. Nothing has changed and a loop hole is not created. Once you get the 3rd, can you upgrade to 2nd on a large OSV? Of course. You have the tonnage. Not being allowed to upgrade in this situation wouldn't make sense.

[JP]

I understand an OSV license is restricted to OSVs. I started on OSVs in 1978 and got my 1600 ton master in 1986. What I am questioning is whether a person who was given a large OSV license to work on a large OSV can in fact upgrade to unlimited master simply by getting his sea time on that large OSV. If so, that means they avoid having to take any of the upper level (management) classes and can get unlimited master with basically only lower level classes and some assessments which CAN be done aboard the vessel for large OSV unlike those for the rest of the STCW unlimited licenses. It also means that they can get unlimited masters license without ever working on anything but supply boats which seems kindof odd to me especially with how the USCG has been restricting us more and more the types of vessels we can work on (took away freight & towing from license and now have to get specific towing endorsement, specific endorsments for passenger vessels, etc). So, in other words, I could have simply kept my 1600 master and 2nd mate unlimited (or even 3rd) and just taken some onboard assessments and then sailed aboard an OSV over 1600 GT and come out with an unlimited master. It does not seem to be in line with what they are attempting to do with the STCW at all. It does make a huge difference in the cost of getting the license, getting chief mate unlimited license by other than large OSV route adds all those management level classes on top of the operational level classes we all have to take now for 1600 ton master, 3rd, 2nd mate so it adds a heck of a lot more time and money. Going the large OSV route would save a person all of that extra time and money spent if they still come out with unlimited master at the end. In fact, they will probably come out with it sooner since they will probably be able to avoid the whole sailing as chief mate unlimited for a year holdup for those of us still doing it the traditional way.
As for being late to the party, it would be really nice if the USCG would have followed thier own rules and notified the public and those of us working in this industry of all these changes coming so we would have some advance knowledge and be able to prepare. I was in the REC in Oct, Nov, Dec of 2001 and Jan of 2002 asking about rumors of changes to STCW and no one there had a clue. None of it was published in any of the maritime publications we would be expected to read such as Professional Mariner or Workboat Magazine. I suppose it must have come out in the Federal Register but who reads that??? They are supposed to give us an opportunity to comment on these things and they did not on either STCW 78 or STCW 95. At least with the changes coming now they are finally doing that and hopefully some mariners will get a sayso tho I have my doubts since they just canceled the MERPAC meeting. I have tried to keep up with that but it is all but impossible!

[Azimuth]

The OSV license reads Master Offshore Supply Vessles limited to 500GRT/6000ITC. With this license you would only be able to serve on vessels that are operating under 46CFR sub chapter L. Sea service on OSVs greater than 3000 ITC has been acceptable for unlimited upgrades; however, because of the manning requirements allowed under subchapter L, most all OSVs don't run a true chief mate position and as such are unable satisfy the sea service requirement for Master AGT since you must serve 180 days as chief mate. As for the required schools for an unrestricted trade license, they must all be completed no matter what type vessel you sail on.

FYI- the reason the 6000 ton limitation is in place is because by definition an OSV can be no larger than 6000 tons. I have heard, but not confirmed, that the 6000ITC limit stated in Subchapter L is going to be removed altogether (read no limitation on the size of an OSV)

[Capt. Lee]

JP,

Let me get the facts straight. First of all you didn't waste all that time and money on the license. Even if you never sail on it I am sure it is an achievement that you are proud of. Now qualifying time as chief mate to upgrade to master. You can get a one for two basis as OICNW, but 6 months of the required time to upgrade to Unlimited Master has to be in the capacity of Chief mate on a vessel that requires a chief mate. I was under the impression that you could no longer qualify for Unlimited Master time on an OSV. It will have to be an unlimited vessel.

On a side note, I was trying to upgrade to Chief Mate using time from a large OSV. My sea time letter was written as Master. The NMC told me that time did not count. I had to get the sea time letter re-written to say OICNW 2nd Mate. Now I am getting ready to upgrade to Unlimited Master and my sea time needs to read Chief Mate. I think you might be able to possibly get the upgrade if your sea time letter/discharges have you in the capacity of Chief Mate.

[JP]

OK, let me spell out the situation. I was previously working on a vessel that was over 1600 GT (actually around 4500 GT), it was classed as a "multi-purpose cargo vessel". The class certificate does not mention OSV anywhere on it. I know of at least 2 people who have recieved licenses as chief mate for large OSV for service on this vessel. They previously only had 1600 GT masters licenses. They are both now sailing as chief mate on that vessel with large OSV licenses (which I was previously the chief mate on that vessel but left to take a different job). Someone told me that when they go to renew thier license that they will be able to get an unlimited masters license since they have been sailing as chief mate on an unlimited vessel.
The issue is not upgrading with the proper tonnage, it is moving from restricted license (OSV) to unrestricted license (unlimited chief mate or master license). I don't really think that going from OSV limited license without taking any of the management level classes or the chief mate test will be very qualified to run unlimited tonnage container ships for example. If the USCG does think they are qualified, then why does a guy working on an unlimited tonnage container ship as 2nd mate have to go to the management level classes and take the chief mate unlimited test to upgrade to chief mate but not the guy working on the large OSV?
By the way, I do have an unlimited chief mates license and just was sailing as master 1600 GT but the USCG says that time does not count either since it is not "chief mate". I can only use that time as OICNW (2 for 1). I was supervising the chief mate and was doing all of the supervising of ballasting, stability, bunkering, paperwork, etc for the vessel but yet because the vessel was uninspected and had no COI, there was no manning certificate requiring any mates at all much less a chief mate so my discharge letter can only say master. I have some sea time as chief mate on unlimited vessels but I still need 6 weeks of sea time as chief mate on an unlimited tonnage vessel. I suppose time on a large OSV would count if their certificate specified having a chief mate but who knows how long it will take to find another opening.

[Capt. Lee]

How are they running at all on a vessel that is not an OSV with an OSV license?

No one should be able to bypass all the management level STCW classes to get a chief mate's license. I can see someone being grandfathered from the OICNW classes. For example a 1600 ton Master should not have to take OICNW classes to get his 3rd Mate's license. Sign offs and test only. I have not heard of anyone bypassing these classes nor do I think they should be able to. Why not get the sea time letter changed from Master to Chief Mate. That would be the easiest.

[Capt. Lee]

PS No one can just apply for an unlimited Master's license after running as Master on a Large OSV and get it. No way no how!!

[anchorman]

OK, let me spell out the situation. I was previously working on a vessel that was over 1600 GT (actually around 4500 GT), it was classed as a "multi-purpose cargo vessel". The class certificate does not mention OSV anywhere on it. I know of at least 2 people who have recieved licenses as chief mate for large OSV for service on this vessel. They previously only had 1600 GT masters licenses. They are both now sailing as chief mate on that vessel with large OSV licenses (which I was previously the chief mate on that vessel but left to take a different job). Someone told me that when they go to renew thier license that they will be able to get an unlimited masters license since they have been sailing as chief mate on an unlimited vessel.
The issue is not upgrading with the proper tonnage, it is moving from restricted license (OSV) to unrestricted license (unlimited chief mate or master license). I don't really think that going from OSV limited license without taking any of the management level classes or the chief mate test will be very qualified to run unlimited tonnage container ships for example. If the USCG does think they are qualified, then why does a guy working on an unlimited tonnage container ship as 2nd mate have to go to the management level classes and take the chief mate unlimited test to upgrade to chief mate but not the guy working on the large OSV?
By the way, I do have an unlimited chief mates license and just was sailing as master 1600 GT but the USCG says that time does not count either since it is not "chief mate". I can only use that time as OICNW (2 for 1). I was supervising the chief mate and was doing all of the supervising of ballasting, stability, bunkering, paperwork, etc for the vessel but yet because the vessel was uninspected and had no COI, there was no manning certificate requiring any mates at all much less a chief mate so my discharge letter can only say master. I have some sea time as chief mate on unlimited vessels but I still need 6 weeks of sea time as chief mate on an unlimited tonnage vessel. I suppose time on a large OSV would count if their certificate specified having a chief mate but who knows how long it will take to find another opening.

Like I said, you cannot bypass STCW. To get an unlimited master license, you have to go through Chief Mate, before that 2nd and 3rd. That never changes just because you were on a large OSV, or had a large OSV license. Lee and myself came up that way, and have been here on gCaptain since it started.....nobody can do what you suggest, but I do have a suggestion. When you apply to NMC, make sure you have all the answers, not the other way around. You don't apply for them to educate you. Know the regulations, meet them, and apply. That way there is never a surprise.