Question on towing endorsement?

[keelhaul]

I would like to get a towing endorsement on my license 1600 nc. I have a first class pilots license of 4,000 for the Houston Ship Channel, also tug barge combination agt. Will the tug barge combination help me? Like, to not have to complete the toar. I asked one person in a local training school and they said it's a CG question. Thanks.

[Capt. Ken Wahl]

I believe they've stopped the endorsement without the TOAR. Sorry, but the TOAR is a must now days. Thanks to the Mobile, Al. accident with the bridge & Train.

[cappy208]

if you got the pilotage with a restriction to tug and barge, that means you got your trips on a towing vessel. (or at least less that the required ship trips, and the tug and barge trips filled in the rest)
As far as 1stCP forget about it's relevance to the MTV endorsement. There is new proposed regulation in the works to restrict any new licenses to either under 100 GT or inland only, unless you take a new exam, and flashing light. So there IS a deadline to work fast to get this done before new regs come into play.

Did you work on tugs previously? I ask because they were 'grandfathering' existing towing vessel operators prior to 2006 or so. If you didn't get it grandfathered in its too late now.

However there is a work around. A person who has an OVER 200 ton license who can show 30 days on a towing vessel, and complete a TOAR (towing officer assessment record) is allowed to stand watch on a towing vessel.

The trick is to work somewhere that has a DE (Designated Examiner) on the boats to visually watch you perform these tasks. You don't even have to go take the completed TOAR to the USCG, Just have one, and a letter proving you spent 30 days training on a towing vessel and youre good to go until your next renewal. (Then you submit the whole paperwork file and will get it endorsed on the new issue.)

This brings me to MY pet peeve. I don't see how it is practical to be able to show proficiency to do approximately 60 things on the TOAR list (to professional standards) in 30 days!

[cappy208]

Thanks to the Mobile, Al. accident with the bridge & Train.

IIRC the Mobile accident is what got us the Radar Observer requirement.

The Bay Titan tripping (C&D canal) with a 8 month old maritime graduate at the helm, and 3 DOAs is what got the scrutiny of inexperienced, 'pencil whipped' promotions that just having a license was good enough to drive a tug.

It must be easy, almost every maritime graduate that has come onto my boats feels THEY should be in my seat! And some have even told me that in those words too!

[keelhaul]

I got permission from several towboat companies in 1996 to ride as a observer on their towboats to get so many trips (30 round trips) on that route. I had already tested on that route to and was trying to get unlimited on the first class pilots license. I have never worked on a towboat but just about everything else from a paddlewheeler to jackup boat. The CG told me I could not upgrade since I did not have a upper level license. I appealed and then they then said if I tested for mates inland agt they'd throw in the 4,000 and tug barge agt. That was done in 1997. I believe I have missed any chance of being grandfathered in for a towing license. My license comes up for renewal in 2013. This should give me time to work on this and try and get this endorsement. Thanks for the great info.

[cappy208]

However there is a work around. A person who has an OVER 200 ton license who can show 30 days on a towing vessel, and complete a TOAR (towing officer assessment record) is allowed to stand watch on a towing vessel.

The trick is to work somewhere that has a DE (Designated Examiner) on the boats to visually watch you perform these tasks. You don't even have to go take the completed TOAR to the USCG, Just have one, and a letter proving you spent 30 days training on a towing vessel and youre good to go until your next renewal. (Then you submit the whole paperwork file and will get it endorsed on the new issue.)

this is new info if you have not looked into this since '96. this new licensing progression has only been around since '04 (or so) So you should look into it. and as mentioned there IS a deadline for this.

[keelhaul]

Thanks for your help.

[jdcavo]

IIRC the Mobile accident is what got us the Radar Observer requirement...

The TOAR and revision of towing license structure were also part of the remedial action abfter the Bayou Canot T/V Mauvilla / Amtrak Sunset Limited casualty.

[cappy208]

The TOAR and revision of towing license structure were also part of the remedial action after the Bayou Canot T/V Mauvilla / Amtrak Sunset Limited casualty.

That would be true IF the time line supported such thought. However the implementation or the Radar Observer requirements for UTV's was only a year or three after the Bayou Canot incident.
The Bayou Canot incident occurred in 1993. Radar Obs Reqs were implemented in '94 or '95.

The realization that a towing vessel is NOT an average boat to run made UTV licenses harder to get, and the new exams had more material to prove proficiency. This started in about 1998. This led to the 'New' Master/Mate towing Vessel endorsement.

Unfortunately there was a qualified mariner shortage in the early 2000's. AWO (Spearheaded by Kirby) and visa versa, wanted to relax the laws to allow 'cross licensing' to allow mariners to easily transition from one type of vessels to another. E.G. Yachts to tugs, Ships to yachts, ships to tugs, etc etc. IIRC this topic was specifically found to be one of the problems the USCG wanted to eliminate as stated in the original NPRM from '99)

My how these things change and the original importance is forgotten! However, these more stringent regulations were watered down at the behest of Kirby and AWO (starting in 2004.) Thus the 'New' TOAR and 30 day wonder rule.

In my mind the TOAR is NOT the problem or the issue. The problem is the misguided perception/expectation that what (IMHO) should be several years of formative experience and 'honing of skills' has been reduced to 30 days! Now we see people who are willing to 'use' their DE to go 'visit' other vessels and sign people off, in 30 days! Oh yeah, of course they want $$ to do it! Sounds like just buying your TOAR to me.

[Capt. Phoenix]

This brings me to MY pet peeve. I don't see how it is practical to be able to show proficiency to do approximately 60 things on the TOAR list (to professional standards) in 30 days!

Honestly, 90% of the stuff on a TOAR shouldn't be on there. You have no business having a license if you can't communicate via VHF or run a tug light. There are only 10 or fewer things on the NC/Ocean TOAR that are truly specific to tugboats.

Then again, there isn't really crossover between different types of towing either. If someone can push a coastal oil barge it doesn't mean they can tow on a hawser, or tow on a wire, or do ship assist work. Just because someone spent 20 years running one type of tug doesn't mean they should be allowed to operate another type without training.

Ultimately, the responsibility of having personnel qualified on the equipment should fall on the company, not the USCG...

[cappy208]

Not to change the topic or Germain matter, But i gave up discussing my vocation in general discussion, since almost every time i 'met' some person who stated they: "were a licensed Captain", and 'knew about the career'. So this is the example, since not everyone who runs a vessel is 'competent' at the job. I can't debate the rest. Can You? John John was certificated to fly in IFR. Was he competent? Most probably not. How would that impact your (my) ability to make a living?

[cappy208]

And after re- reading your post I have to say, there is a WHOLE bunch of differences between experience operating a towing vessel and" " Ferry, spill response, fishing, sailboat, third mate, etc etc etc. The difference is the acknowledgment that a towing vessel reacts, works, and is affected differently than any other type vessel. The knowledge is rarely acknowledged by outsiders, and is further minimized by 'pretenders' who blink their way into the industry. Is MY life worth more than this ''experience"? No, there is a difference between competence, and confidence.

[dougpine]

The TOAR was designed for entry level personnel pursuing a career on towing vessels, which is why there are many assessments on the list that seem very basic. Many assessment on the TOAR do not have to be completed if you already hold OICNW, because they are covered by STCW assessments you've already done. I have my own list of gripes with the TOAR, but in the context of this discussion, the answer to the question asked is: You have to complete a TOAR and show at least 30 days aboard a towing vessel.

[Steamer]

John John was certificated to fly in IFR.

If you are talking about JFK Jr., he was not instrument rated. That was why he killed himself and his passengers in such a spectacular but all too common fashion.

[Capt. Phoenix]

And after re- reading your post I have to say, there is a WHOLE bunch of differences between experience operating a towing vessel and" " Ferry, spill response, fishing, sailboat, third mate, etc etc etc. The difference is the acknowledgment that a towing vessel reacts, works, and is affected differently than any other type vessel. The knowledge is rarely acknowledged by outsiders, and is further minimized by 'pretenders' who blink their way into the industry. Is MY life worth more than this ''experience"? No, there is a difference between competence, and confidence.

If that was aimed at my post then I agree, running a tug with tow is completely different than anything else. I never said otherwise. But there is practically no difference between a light tug and any other boat and there is no difference between the VHF radio on a tug and that on a ferry. Thus, most of the competencies on the TOAR are redundant. Plus, it is possible to get a TOAR signed off without ever having worked a barge before, why does that qualify someone to go to a company that works barges and get a job? It should be up to the Captain and the company officials to determine if someone is competent, not the USCG. Because ultimately the coast guard has no way of knowing what someones ability is.

[10talents]

It should be up to the Captain and the company officials to determine if someone is competent, not the USCG. Because ultimately the coast guard has no way of knowing what someones ability is.

That would be like hiring a Fox to guard the Hen House. There has to be an outside entity with oversight and control.

[cappy208]

Plus, it is possible to get a TOAR signed off without ever having worked a barge before,

No not aimed at you, but at anyone who is contemplating crossing over to towing vessels.

That is not true. several of the evolutions specifically call for on wire, off wire, on hip, off hip, docking with a barge, undocking with a barge. If you got a TOAR signed off without actually handling a barge then you may want to ask the DE to give his letter back to the CG cause he ain't being professional in his assessments.

[cappy208]

It should be up to the Captain and the company officials to determine if someone is competent, not the USCG. Because ultimately the coast guard has no way of knowing what someones ability is.

No. This is the whole concept of the Designated Examiner. Uncle Sams Confused Group realized they have neither the manpower or expertise to judge candidates skills (so I wonder how they can assess any of Us in any case!) So the DE concept was thought up, to get qualified Master of Towing vessels who have been (minimally) vetted by the CG to sign off possible candidates.

It has been proven time after time that the Company's judgment is far from trustworthy when, in a pinch all rules and sound judgment are usually thrown out the porthole, as the FNG is ushered in, and then crashes and burns. BTST been there seen that!

[jdcavo]

...Plus, it is possible to get a TOAR signed off without ever having worked a barge before, why does that qualify someone to go to a company that works barges and get a job?

The manuevering and handling sections of the TOAR cannot be signed off unless the candidate performed the described task(s). If the task involves handling a barge, they have to handle a barge.

There is a misconseption that if it's not practicazl or convenient to perform a task, ther candidate can just describe how they perform the task. This is not correct.

If a vessel or company's operations do not normally include certain tasks, they can obtain approval for a TOAR that will result in a license with a restriction that corresponds to the parts of the "normal" TOAR they could not perform. We have approved TOARs for ship-assist boats, ATBs, and for Military Sealift Command who does not normally push or tow on the hip. NMC also allows issues inland licenses with a restriction that they are not valid for waters with locks if the candidate is unable to demonstrate transiting locks because their boat'soperations don't include areas with locks.

[Capt. Phoenix]

I believe the wording of the TOAR is "tow" not "barge". I know of people who have gotten a TOAR signed off by using another tug as the "tow". They tow it astern on a hawser, tow it alongside, dock it, etc. They have NEVER in their career worked a barge but are now "qualified" to do so. Plus, just completing the TOAR doesn't make one proficient at the tasks in question. Maybe it is better than allowing someone with no towing experience at all to jump at the helm but to me it doesn't mean a whole lot.