Foreign flag charters

**waterwrkpr** · July 12th, 2012, 04:15 PM

Ok refresh my memory, can a foreign flag private vessel, Marshall Islands build in Canada, charter in US waters? And what does it take to do so?

Thanks for the jolt

**c.captain** · July 12th, 2012, 04:25 PM

Yes it can provided it 1] not carry any cargo out of or in to any US port from another US port or MODU or fixed facility working on the US Outer Continental Shelf (I am assuming the vessel in question is in the GoM), 2] the vessel is not allowed to carry anchors or mooring equipment, set or recover anchors or tow any vessel or MODU on waters within the OCS (it can tow a vessel to or away from the OCS however) and 3] if it is under the effective control of a US based contractor 33USCpart141 mandates that the crew be US citizens (but typically this is ignored by the Coast Guard and allows the foreign mariners on the vessel to remain in it)...will refrain from commenting again on this...sorry!

I know one large foreign AHTS got busted recently for handling anchors for a rig offshore. Have you seen another doing the same thing because if you did, then OMSA would like the hear from you.

**waterwrkpr** · July 12th, 2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by c.captain

Yes it can provided it 1] not carry any cargo out of or in to any US port from another US port or MODU or fixed facility working on the US Outer Continental Shelf (I am assuming the vessel in question is in the GoM), 2] the vessel is not allowed to carry anchors or mooring equipment, set or recover anchors or tow any vessel or MODU on waters within the OCS (it can tow a vessel to or away from the OCS however) and 3] if it is under the effective control of a US based contractor 33USCpart141 mandates that the crew be US citizens (but typically this is ignored by the Coast Guard and allows the foreign mariners on the vessel to remain in it)...will refrain from commenting again on this...sorry!

I know one large foreign AHTS got busted recently for handling anchors for a rig offshore. Have you seen another doing the same thing because if you did, then OMSA would like the hear from you.

Capt. Good to know! I'll look up the CFR too. BTW it's a private yacht under 300grt and plan on using for production in a TV show. Boat is in US waters...

**c.captain** · July 12th, 2012, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by waterwrkpr

Capt. Good to know! I'll look up the CFR too. BTW it's a private yacht under 300grt and plan on using for production in a TV show. Boat is in US waters...

If that charter starts and ends in US waters without entering a foreign port then it will be illegal however no one will give a shit except for an owner of a US flag charter vessel who didn't get the job. Where is this all taking place? If it is on the west coast then I know people who will be very pissed off to fid this happening.

**Steamer** · July 13th, 2012, 06:42 AM

Yes, if it is a "bareboat charter."

This sounds like a question about a yacht transaction that happens all the time. Like ATBs and such, it is a scam but it works and no one in the CG or DHS or any other government agency really gives a crap. Pissing off rich campaign contributors isn't a good career move.

**+A465B** · July 14th, 2012, 12:34 PM

No. Not legally.

Next question please

**Steamer** · July 14th, 2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by +A465B

No. Not legally.

Where did you get that idea? Are you the U.S. Customs judge responsible for deciding these things?

"Customs has consistently ruled that a yacht chartered under a bona fide bareboat charter and used only for pleasure purposes is not considered to be used in the coastwise trade. However, a yacht chartered under a charter agreement other than a bareboat charter (e.g., a time or voyage charter) and used in the U.S. waters is considered to be used in trade."

http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=111731&ac=pr

http://www.yachtlaw.com/uploads/7/9/...dsecurity2.pdf

"Bareboat charters of foreign built or owned vessels are permitted under the fiction that a true "bare boat charter" is not a commercial application and the Jones Act applies only to commercial applications. Traditionally the issue has involved the chartering of pleasure boats or yachts and whether the charter has violated the terms of the Passenger Services Act.

The term passenger for hire means any transportation aboard a vessel in which some consideration, i.e., benefit, flows from the passenger, his agent or representative to the owner, his agent or representative. Consequently, business guest may be considered a "paying" passenger because of the flow of business good will to the owner. Consequently, where a group or organization charters a vessel and members contribute to the cost of the charter, the organization may be found to have passengers for hire. The underlying purpose is to create a distinct line between commercial or business use and pleasure use. No matter how we describe the conduct of the parties there will always be a gray area of discretionary enforcement. Legally, if a guest aboard a vessels provides fuel, food or beverage for the voyage that is consumed by the owner, we have a passenger for hire situation. Realistically this will probably not be enforced unless other factors are involved.

The use of foreign owned or foreign built yachts in a commercial application is strictly prohibited. However, foreign built and owned yachts may operate in U.S. waters for pleasure and non-commercial purposes. These vessels may also be chartered in U.S. waters, as well, but only for non-commercial purposes. If a businessman charters a foreign built yacht to entertain his clients he and the owner are in violation of the Passenger Services Act.

The true bare boat charter must be non-commercial and the owner must relinquish the custody and control of the vessel, entirely. If the owner skippers the vessels or controls the choice of the skipper, then the charter is not a true bare boat charter and will be considered carrying passengers for hire.

Violations of the Passenger Services Act or the Jones Act may, but do not necessarily result in forfeiture of the vessel to the United States Government. In the event of forfeiture, the vessel is deemed to have become the property of the United States at the instant of violation and allows immediate seizure. There are provisions for remission of the vessel and payment of fine and penalties. Also, mortgagor holders and lien holders may petition the government for remission to protect their interests in the vessel."

**Fraqrat** · July 14th, 2012, 02:17 PM

Oh man! where is Flag Officer this is his sorta thing. We need comedy relef on this tread STAT!!!

**+A465B** · July 14th, 2012, 06:06 PM

The part about "............. plan on using for production in a TV show..." begins to suggest that possibly, just perhaps, maybe kinda, somehow, wink, nod, shrug, I don't know, but maybe the (intended) use for the vessel in question is not pleasure, but purely COMMERCIAL, regardless of the registration or charter form.

So one might just guess the actual answer to the actual question is, "No, not legally."

Sure, other regulations / law might apply to different situations.

Thanks for doing the research that proves it. At least it is thinkin'.

**c.captain** · July 14th, 2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by +A465B

The part about "............. plan on using for production in a TV show..." begins to suggest that possibly, just perhaps, maybe kinda, somehow, wink, nod, shrug, I don't know, but maybe the (intended) use for the vessel in question is not pleasure, but purely COMMERCIAL, regardless of the registration or charter form.

So one might just guess the actual answer to the actual question is, "No, not legally."

Sure, other regulations / law might apply to different situations.

Thanks for doing the research that proves it. At least it is thinkin'.

I agree with you that if it is chartered to support a commercial enterprise then itself becomes a commercial enterprise and unless the vessel enters a foreign port the charter will not be legal but as I said before nobody usually gives a shit about these things unless some US boat misses out. I will our OP could tell us more? If it is Alaska, I know several companies which will file a complaint with the US Customs.

**Capt. Phoenix** · July 15th, 2012, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Steamer

Legally, if a guest aboard a vessels provides fuel, food or beverage for the voyage that is consumed by the owner, we have a passenger for hire situation.

Directly from 46 USC 2101:

"(5a) “consideration” means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies."

***Note the part that says "not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies."

**Steamer** · July 15th, 2012, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by c.captain

I agree with you that if it is chartered to support a commercial enterprise then itself becomes a commercial enterprise ...

In that case nobody would be able to take a hooker along for the trip, would they?

There is no limit as to the number of crew that can be onboard. If that crew is tasked with operating lights and cameras does that make the boat a commercial vessel? The boat isn't transporting people or cargo for hire so the letter of the law is not violated, is it?