Question for TUGBOAT guys...

[godinabox]

I've been sailing blue water for 15 years. My current rating is AB unlimited. I'd like to spend more time on the beach so I've been looking at tugs. I have a couple of applications in but heard immediately from CONSOL energy in Pittsburgh. Money is decent for a first job in a career transition and the benefits are good, BUT they apparently have a revolving door problem. Can't keep people and are having a hard time recruiting anyone. Okay, it's an energy company and having worked in the oil patch I know what dicks the oil and gas guys are, but a revolving door in this economy doesn't make sense unless they're water boarding guys for showing up 3 minutes late for watch. 14/7 is fine with me but the deckhands work a 6 hour on/off rotation which seems insane. 6 and 6 is a burnout schedule. When an AB goes down on a deep sea vessel the two healthy guys will stand 6/6 but it's temporary. I can see 12/12 or even 8/8, but at 6/6 you never get any real sleep. Is this standard on tugs?

[Jolly Tar]

6/6 was the norm when I was standing watch in the NAVY and for four years of wire tugs out of New York (which wrapped up in May). My company dallied with CEMS and had a couple boats experimenting with 7/5/5/7 and 8/4/4/8. If I had to guess, they are back to 6/6 by now. Unless yer offshore doing long haul, on a tug (something designed to collide with others) you ain't getting fabulous sleep ANYWAY; especially doing harbor work.

[cappy208]

yup 6 and 6 is the industry standard. some places will let you do 12 and 12. most wont. river towing is way different than conventional towing. attitude, indifference and complacency is rampant. your dilemma will be to find a company that is progressive, modern and educated! In my mind a company that has their employees work 2 for 1 (or unequal time) is NOT the place to be expecting a worthwhile work environment! If you can't understand how these companies expect their marine employees to have any semblance of normal family life, and to be settled in order to be able to concentrate on the job when they are GONE for 9 months a year!

[Jemplayer]

I don't understand how tug companies expect people to function after weeks of only getting 6 hours of rest at a time.

If I remember correctly the CG is proposing a rule change that state that a mariner must have 10 hours of CONTINUOUS rest per day. If that comes to pass then good riddance 6/6.

[Jolly Tar]

That's just six hours OFF WATCH. I counted myself BLESSED if I got 4 solid hours of sleep. 10 continuous hours?!? NEVER happen - foreign labor would replace us sooner than that happening.

[mtskier]

Six hours would be wonderful on a 6&6 schedule! The reality is probably closer to 4.5 if you have ANYTHING to do off watch. I get up about twenty minutes before I have to relieve the watch so that I can shake out most of the cobwebs before going "up". As for the USCG and CEMS, I'll believe it when I see it happen.
MTSKIER

[captbbrucato]

Like the boys said, most coastal and harbor tug outfits are 6 & 6. I work a 2 week on and off schedule. I've been standing 6 & 6 for better than 30 years, yes it's tough sometimes but it is what it is. Plenty of guys have served their careers working the 6 & 6 schedule. It's the equal time thing that is the issue. If you work equal time, it's easier to live for 2 weeks standing the 6&6 than if you were working 2 & 1 or 4 & 2. Yes it burns you out. At least with equal time you can return to a sense of normalcy after a day or so and actually have a life.
CEMS won't work on most tugs, there's just nowhere aboard to avoid the noise, cooking odors, noise from maintenance work, bumps in the night etc. You'd be lucky to get a solid 4.5 hrs sleep at a time. You still have to eat, shower, do laundry.

Jemplayer;
Tug companies in NY have been doing the same thing for at least the 38 years that I've been in the business. "How" is not the question, "why" is obvious (it's cheaper), when will it change......hmmmm.
The rest you refer to is time off-watch, not sleeping. And unless the mariner stands a 12 & 12 watch 10 hours can't happen, as it is with 4&8 rotations the most time off would be 8 hours so unless you fall asleep and wake in the spot you were at the end of your last watch, you still won't (even if you fall right to sleep) have gotten much more than 7 hours. The new Towing Inspection rules are likely to gloss over manning and crew rest. Unless a three watch rotation is mandated, it won't happen. I'd be interested to see where are all these qualified tugboat people are supposed to come from?

[Jemplayer]

I still don't understand why you tug guys insist on working 6&6. Whats wrong with 12&12? Is it just one of those things that has been so it always will be?

As for the 10 hours thing, that's the idea is to force every one onto a 12&12.

[captbbrucato]

No disrespect is intended, but how much harbor tug experience are you speaking from? How many years have you stood 6 hour watches? Since the issue of why we accept 6&6 is so difficult to understand, perhaps you would care to consider that a 12 hour watch is more dangerous than a 6 hour watch if you're aiming to increase safety. The most dangerous time of the day is the end of the back watch an hour or so before first light. Is there any sense to the idea that you'd be less tired at the end of a 6 hour watch, or a 12 hour watch?
I think the 6 hour watch is appropriate for the conditions we work under. Whether it's "the way it's always been" or not, it's what works. No-one has come up with a CEMS tugboat solution that holds any water that doesn't include increasing crew compliments. Until they do, we'll go on like we always do. Shift workers face the same dilemma with circadian rhythms and sleep cycle disruption.
I don't think forcing a 12 hour watch on tugboats is advised, I doubt we'd see much improvement, if any..
FWIW, I tried the CEMS approach and found it lacking. 7-5-5-7 didn't accomplish enough to make it practical. Too much tugboat stuff going on.
If I'm not mistaken, most sea-going vessels stand a 4&8 rotation for months on end, if anything that would be the way to go. Crew compliment would necessarily increase. Trying to force the same number of personnel to double their watch standing time and expect them to get 10 hours rest on a tugboat is far-fetched. Tugboats are noisy and bump things around now and then. Even the soundest sleeper would have difficulty getting 6 hours, much less 10.

[cappy208]

I'd be interested to see where are all these qualified tugboat people are supposed to come from?

As an aside to that statement let me throw in my own modifier. I'd be interested to see where all these SUPPOSED qualified tugboat people are supposed to come from?

I believe I know where they will come 'from', but will they be qualified?

[10talents]

Having done 6/6 on tugs and now 4/8 for MSRC on the BP cleanup I am spoiled. I never got over 4 hours sleep on the 6/6. With 4/8 I feel rested. After this gig I go to a 40 hour boat. Home every evening and off on weekends albeit with a pager. I would go back to tugs with a 4/8 watch but have no interest in doing 12 hour days anymore whether 6/6 or 12/12. If your inland your always on your toes (bridges, traffic, the bank). Personally I think 4/8 watch is the best choice for safety and morale.
Having said all that I am thankful to even have a job no matter the hours worked.

[kfj]

I work 12/12 and work 14/7 or 28/14 depending on how far the boat is away from home. I have worked a few 6/6 and that is the worst shit if you ask me.

[Jemplayer]

Captbbrucato from what your telling me and what I have gathered talking to other tug guys is that it's the why it's always been and will always be. It amazes me that I have never found any tug guys that have worked 12&12 and come back and either gave it a yea or nae. All those CEMS wonky schedule's look bad on paper, so I have no doubt they don't work in real life.

I fail to see how a 6&6 schedule be safer when your on the ragged edge from so little rest all the time? Sleep is a big part of it, but just being able to go to your bunk watch a movie or read a book, hell take a shower. Anything to get out of your head for a few hours every day is just as important.

I guess the answer I'm looking for is that it so stressful driving a tug that 6 hours is all one can take. I mean no disrespect if that is the case, I hate having to run up freshwater canal at night all the freaking time trying to keep the boat off the banks. So I can see having to deal with bridges and other 1000ft tows in confined spaces all the time can be taxing.

[cappy208]

Ahhhhhh. Now that I'm fully rested and refreshed after my afternoon 1.5 hour nap, I thought up a coherent answer to this post.

I know this post (theory) will raise some pissed off responses, but hey; you asked, and I'm giving you my unvarnished opinion!

The 12/12 hour watch would ONLY work if the backwatch is FULLY independent, and competent. In other words, If I (as Captain) was NEVER called upon off watch, with NO reason to go up to the bridge so that once a day I COULD count on getting 7 or 8 hours uninterrupted sleep than I would consider it. However, and I feel lucky with my current Mate, sometimes I do have to go up, if the throttles are being horsed too much (indicating confusion, or difficulty maneuvering), or when I hear the danger signal for the 3rd time on a Saturday afternoon going out the tip of the hook in Scotland channel, inbound C&D canal reedy point ripping ebb, or inbound to Newport. There are times when My mate says: "Gee, I've never been in/out of that berth before" Then that pretty much shoots my 12 hours off right?

The 6 and 6, while being tough for extended periods, lets you have these interruptions, and you recover. I am not sure (although I have not done 12/12) that If i was woken up in my 12 hour off time knowing that the mate has/will be up for 12 hours also, I am not going to be fully rested, and neither is the Mate if he lets me sleep in, after I got called up to the bridge.

I think what iis being ignored (or better put not experienced) is having a two watch system with the Captain standing a watch is detrimental to the performance of the Captains duty (as in overall charge, and overseeing everything.)

Being on an ATB is even harder, since I not only stand a wheel watch, but then I Have to field calls from company HR, Safety, Insurance, dispatch, Maintenance, not to mention the big boss at home; all this while dealing with docks, assist tugs, etas, traffic, and changes in cargo orders. Sure It is nice when the 2nd (cargo mate) does some of this stuff, but who gets the shit end of the stick when something messes up???

[captbbrucato]

"The 12/12 hour watch would ONLY work if the backwatch is FULLY independent, and competent. In other words, If I (as Captain) was NEVER called upon off watch, with NO reason to go up to the bridge so that once a day I COULD count on getting 7 or 8 hours uninterrupted sleep than I would consider it. However, and I feel lucky with my current Mate, sometimes I do have to go up, if the throttles are being horsed too much (indicating confusion, or difficulty maneuvering), or when I hear the danger signal for the 3rd time on a Saturday afternoon going out the tip of the hook in Scotland channel, inbound C&D canal reedy point ripping ebb, or inbound to Newport. There are times when My mate says: "Gee, I've never been in/out of that berth before" Then that pretty much shoots my 12 hours off right?

The 6 and 6, while being tough for extended periods, lets you have these interruptions, and you recover. I am not sure (although I have not done 12/12) that If i was woken up in my 12 hour off time knowing that the mate has/will be up for 12 hours also, I am not going to be fully rested, and neither is the Mate if he lets me sleep in, after I got called up to the bridge.

I think what is being ignored (or better put not experienced) is having a two watch system with the Captain standing a watch is detrimental to the performance of the Captains duty (as in overall charge, and overseeing everything.)

Being on an ATB is even harder, since I not only stand a wheel watch, but then I Have to field calls from company HR, Safety, Insurance, dispatch, Maintenance, not to mention the big boss at home; all this while dealing with docks, assist tugs, etas, traffic, and changes in cargo orders. Sure It is nice when the 2nd (cargo mate) does some of this stuff, but who gets the shit end of the stick when something messes up???[/QUOTE]

Well said, it's not that it's more stressful. It's the demands on the master's attention that force an interruption in rest periods. ISM paperwork, SIRE inspections, Drills, maintenance, recency issues all stand in the way of an uninterrupted rest period. Even with a self-sufficient 2nd Mate, there are things that need to be addressed during cargo ops and need to see my signature. 12&12 won't offer any guarantee that I will get 10 hours of rest, not even close. 6&6 works out okay for me, I always seem to catch up.
The shit end of the stick is always going to be there. That's what you get when you accept a Captain's position. ATB's are now the small tankers of the petroleum transportation world. We're not a simple tugboat operation anymore. We're under scrutiny from OCIMF, charterers and Insurers. The new tug/towing inspection regs will have been superseded by the OCIMF rules and guidelines in short order, the charterers will take on the role of demanding certain crew complements and standards in the coming years, and they'll pay those who comply handsomely.
Right now the Oil company bean-counters are side stepping the crew complement issues until they reach the tipping point between how they want things done and how we can effectively do them. Once they demand larger crews, the money for it will come from the charterers in their dayrates. If they want it, they'll get it. There only so much we can do with a 7 or 8 man crew. Once they decide it's in their interest for our outfits to increase crew size, they will ante up and require the transporters to provide it as part of the charter arrangement.
Until they determine we should have a three watch rotation for domestic transport, we'll be on a 2 watch system.

[Jemplayer]

Thank you so much for describing your work day in more detail, working 6&6 makes more sense knowing that you seem to be needed pretty often. The only thing I could figure was that running inland was more taxing.
I've only worked offshore supply boats under 100 tons and there we run two licensed captains and you rarely have to get up during your 12 off to deal with something. The only time really is when you get a green captain and need to train them up, and they usually catch on pretty quick so after a few hitches you're able to get back on a normal routine.

[cappy208]

Actually it is NOT that I am needed more often, it is just that I NEVER know when I may be either called up, or feel the need (intuition) when I may be required on the bridge. My Mate refers to me as having an uncanny knack of showing up when things are 'happening'. The thought of doing 12 hours straight, then being off watch sounds tantalizing. However the uncertainty of not knowing if/when I MAY be woken up (after spending 12 hours on watch) sounds like it would be impossible to catch up . I know when I work for an extended period (on the boat or at home) I need a longer time to recover. I believe this is true of all of us, regardless of age, and position. However, the realization that a 12 hour stint doing anything is a whole lot harder to recover from than a 6 hour stint, when factoring in unanticipated interruptions in rest. My emphasis has been on wheelhouse work. The three watch system is irrelevant, because on a three watch system, with the Captain standing a watch there will still be the time the captain is up off watch. It is rare to have a non watch standing captain on tugs.

There are some companies that use a three watch system with the captain being the actual operator, and the mates are 'sea mates'. That is sea buoy to sea buoy, then the Captain takes over. One can see that won't work for very long if the vessel is operated within a harbor on short frequent runs. It appears that this type of operation is what is the dilemma being discussed here.


Getting back to the original context of this post, a deckhands job is what was being discussed.

I feel that a deckhand can do 12 hours. It is OK if the Deckhand is a little drowsy at the end of watch. That is what Coffee is for! But the Deckhand is NOT making decisions that effect and affect the lives of their shipmates! To have an actual operator on watch which depends on the alert attention to navigation and detail seems too much to ask unless you can guaranty the requisite time off for rest.

[Cal]

This tugboat deckhand does 12 hour watches. I hate the 6/6 schedule. With working a 12 hour watch I am able to get between 7 and 8 hours of "uninterrupted" sleep. Uninterrupted is in quotes because there are maneuvers that are accomplished much safer with two people out on deck. When I do have to get up during my off watch my ability to recover is much easier given the time I have available. For me, 6 1/2 hours of actual sleep is better than 10 hours of sleep broken up into 2 - 5 hour segments.

That being said, I don't see a 12/12 for the wheelhouse as practical nor safe. 12 hours is simply too long to sit/stand and concentrate on all the factors necessary for navigation. I find that mental exhaustion often trumps physical exhaustion and frequently requires more rest to recuperate from. Our crew is lucky, the deckhands have shown the interest in navigating the tug and with the assistance of the Captain and Mate we are able to watch the wheel while they take a break to use the head or grab a bite to eat. Even then, there are times when it's simply not prudent to do that. Imagine driving for 12 hours without stopping, same thing, the fatigue will get to you.

There are a lot of guys that are proponents of three wheelhouse personnel and a 4/8 watch schedule. I can see the companies reducing pay if that ever comes about, only paying you for 8 hours of work instead of 12, which will undoubtedly cause an uproar. Besides, the companies are still trying to hack away at manning. I know of many harbor tugs (read as ship assist) that are running with 4 men that aren't "day boats". The engineer does double duty and handles lines on deck when necessary. I have a friend on an ATB that has a license. On a long haul over 600 miles he stands one of the three navigation watches. Upon arrival in a port he stands the deckhand watch from 12 - 6 until departure, then he goes back to a navigation watch. At the rate things are going, they're going to do away with the Jones Act and hire 6 Filipinos to do our jobs anyway!

[subatomicstang]

Where i work the hours are manipulated by the Captain. We run 4 man crews, so the Engineer , and DH work watches, and i pretty much leave it up to them. Ive worked a 6 on 6 off watch system, ive worked 12 on 12 off watch , and those 12 hour watches are horrible when the boat is being utilized the whole time! Harbor assist is alot of close quarter situations, so controlled crashing is a lot easier when your not stuck on watch for 12 hours of mindless assist. I would much rather do 6 n 6 or 8 n 4