Lockout Tagout BS

[aeman]

I am a relief Engineer on a major cruise line and the accepted means of lock-out or as they call it “isolation” is horrifying and I cannot seem to figure out why. I believe WCB would fine these ships if these practices were conducted locally, or maybe I'm just been paranoid?

How it works,

The normal practice is, if a piece of equipment needs to be isolated or locked out for maintenance/repair it is a simple call to the ECR and tell whom ever picks up the phone (it could be me or my junior) and asks the Watchkeeper to isolate the equipment. Most likely, the junior watchkeeper will then go down and Isolate the equipment and call back to the ECR and confirms the equipment is isolated. If the work load permits, he will then return to the ECR and fill in the isolation book (which is only used and read by watchkeeprs at hand over).

The obvious problems with this system are;

• The person performing the work does not witness or test the lock out
• No signs, tags or locks are ever applied,
• Communications is sometimes by radio which can be very poor i.e. Evap #4 and Evac #4 are almost impossible to tell apart. Or was that DG 2 3, 5 or 4. "I forgot" happens all the time.

On a major cruise ship, as you can imagine, been on the 8-12 watch and in port is just ciaos, taking on water, bunkers, lube and discharging sludge and numerous other activities all at the same time, it is so easy to get rushed and just forget an isolation or assume your Third has done it, hopfully done it correctly, and just has not made it up the control room and sign off the book.

Who is there right mind does not see serious flaws in this system??

De-isolating is just the same, all it requires is a phone call to the ECR from….well anyone to de-isoltes the equipment, not the person who has performed the work and again its by a phone or radio call to me or my Third to do the de-isolation. Keep in mind that there has now most likely been a watch change to add even further confuse things. So someone completely different will now do the de-isolation. (you can imagine the problem this causes and you would be correct) Also remember, once something has been de-isolated the PMS (power management system) computer controls all stop/starting functions, not the watchkeeper.

I Unfortunately, had my Third mistakenly, de-isolate the wrong Main Engine once, while people were still working on it!!!! My First and Staff Chief were pretty upset and it resulted in the Third been breathalysed!!! (Talk about looking for a problem in the wrong area)

Permit to work you ask, what a joke, that is simply for hot work and tank entry.

The truly sad thing is, it will not be the British Officer whom will be killed or seriously injured but one the hard working, dedicated Filipino Motormen who are too nervous to speak up.

I have, "it is the accepted way, always has been and always will"… (was the reply I got)


Stay safe out there!!

[exsubguy]

I'm not sure about the situation on your ship, but that kind of culture will hurt someone soon. Some immediate advice I can give you is:
1. Check all the indications: If you're working in a panel, check with a multimeter to make sure there is no voltage. Check pressures, water levels, temperatures, or whatever gauge available to ensure the system is safe.

2. Isolate it locally: Open the nearby breaker, there is usually a control box with it's own breaker nearby. Unfortunately this might not isolate all electrical power, but you can always do the voltage checks, and it should stop someone from powering up the system while you're working on it.

3. Communication: I would tell you to avoid the radio if you can, and no matter what make the ECR repeat back exactly what you told them. Make them do it until they get it right. The other part is proper turnover, tell as many people in the on-coming shift as you can about what is tagged out and why.

As you know there is much much more involved in a proper tagout system, but just watching out for yourself and your fellow crew is a start.

[Robert]

I can't believe they don't tag it out. That is one of the most elementary safety procedures.

[wmoser]

Yeah, I'm not really sure I would even call that Lock Out/ Tag Out since there aren't any locks or tags involved. Even in a small department when we're all down in the E/R working on different projects in port or what not, its not possible to know 100% of the time what every one else is working on. I would maybe try, at a minimum, to get some tags that you could put what's isolated, and why. Do you even have the locks and tags available? If they are, start with getting the guys on your watch to use it.

[cmakin]

I would certainly think that there would be some sort of procedure set forth in the ISM code. Of course those are only as good as they are written and followed.

[El Capitan]

I would certainly think that there would be some sort of procedure set forth in the ISM code. Of course those are only as good as they are written and followed.

The ISM Code doesn't say anything about it.

It's up to the individual company to set forth a prudent and practical SMS program, that follows the 13 basic tenets of the ISM Code, followed by good HSE policy, and reasonable environmental practices.

What is the flag state of this cruise ship? What society has it in class?

Let's start with those questions first, and maybe the reason they don't have a proper "LockOut/TagOut" system in place will answer itself.

[cmakin]

The ISM Code doesn't say anything about it.

It's up to the individual company to set forth a prudent and practical SMS program, that follows the 13 basic tenets of the ISM Code, followed by good HSE policy, and reasonable environmental practices.

What is the flag state of this cruise ship? What society has it in class?

Let's start with those questions first, and maybe the reason they don't have a proper "LockOut/TagOut" system in place will answer itself.

Class would have nothing to do with the Lock out/Tag out system in place.

[El Capitan]

Class would have nothing to do with the Lock out/Tag out system in place.

No, but it has everything to do with the Safety Management System that's been approved and in place aboard this ship.

International Safety Management Code - FAQ's

They, or in the case of the UK Flag the MCA, would also be responsible for the approval of the plan ashore (DOC) and afloat, and for attending the vessel for the external audits.

There's several layers to the ISM Code and the way it's implemented, as I'm sure you're aware Cmakin. I'm just trying to gather enough information to lend Aeman a hand with the situation aboard.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[cmakin]

No, but it has everything to do with the Safety Management System that's been approved and in place aboard this ship.

International Safety Management Code - FAQ's

They, or in the case of the UK Flag the MCA, would also be responsible for the approval of the plan ashore (DOC) and afloat, and for attending the vessel for the external audits.

There's several layers to the ISM Code and the way it's implemented, as I'm sure you're aware Cmakin. I'm just trying to gather enough information to lend Aeman a hand with the situation aboard.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

While the SMS certificate may have an eagle and ABS on it, it has nothing to do with Class. Many ABS Class vessels have DNV ISM/SMS certs, and vice versa. Separate animals altogether.

I was with ABS for ten years.

[El Capitan]

While the SMS certificate may have an eagle and ABS on it, it has nothing to do with Class. Many ABS Class vessels have DNV ISM/SMS certs, and vice versa. Separate animals altogether.

I was with ABS for ten years.

So who said anything about ABS?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but if you have a wealth of information to dispense on the subject (which, being with ABS for 10 years, you most likely have a few insights) at hand, have at it.

You're the one that mentioned that:

"there would be some sort of procedure set forth in the ISM code"

- so please proceed, and show us how that works.

The man asked a question; please feel free to take up the subject as I'm not here to pick bones with you.

[cmakin]

So who said anything about ABS?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but if you have a wealth of information to dispense on the subject (which, being with ABS for 10 years, you most likely have a few insights) at hand, have at it.

You're the one that mentioned that: - so please proceed, and show us how that works.

The man asked a question; please feel free to take up the subject as I'm not here to pick bones with you.

All I stated was that there may be a lock out/tag out procedure as part of the ISM/SMS system, since this would deal with a safety procedure. I also added the caveat that it might also not be the case.

It was also asserted that Class and/or Flag State may be a reason that there was no lock out/tag out procedure. I only mentioned ABS as a general Class society since that is the one that I am most familiar with; and that there are no Class requirements for operational procedures. I also stated that Class has no bearing on ISM/SMS; as is the case.

I further asserted my knowledge of this as based on my time with a Class Society.

[Steammaker]

I lock and tag MY OWN breakers. I put the tag on, I take the tag off.

Have a Safe Day
BMH

[anchorman]

I lock and tag MY OWN breakers. I put the tag on, I take the tag off.

Have a Safe Day
BMH

You will live a long life. I've witnessed someone almost killing themselves by not following your simple statement.

Edited to add: This person now has the name of "Sparky", but this was way after having several skin graphs and knowing he was lucky to be alive.

[argentox]

I am a relief Engineer on a major cruise line and the accepted means of lock-out or as they call it “isolation” is horrifying and I cannot seem to figure out why. I believe WCB would fine these ships if these practices were conducted locally, or maybe I'm just been paranoid?

How it works,

The normal practice is, if a piece of equipment needs to be isolated or locked out for maintenance/repair it is a simple call to the ECR and tell whom ever picks up the phone (it could be me or my junior) and asks the Watchkeeper to isolate the equipment. Most likely, the junior watchkeeper will then go down and Isolate the equipment and call back to the ECR and confirms the equipment is isolated. If the work load permits, he will then return to the ECR and fill in the isolation book (which is only used and read by watchkeeprs at hand over).

The obvious problems with this system are;

• The person performing the work does not witness or test the lock out
• No signs, tags or locks are ever applied,
• Communications is sometimes by radio which can be very poor i.e. Evap #4 and Evac #4 are almost impossible to tell apart. Or was that DG 2 3, 5 or 4. "I forgot" happens all the time.

On a major cruise ship, as you can imagine, been on the 8-12 watch and in port is just ciaos, taking on water, bunkers, lube and discharging sludge and numerous other activities all at the same time, it is so easy to get rushed and just forget an isolation or assume your Third has done it, hopfully done it correctly, and just has not made it up the control room and sign off the book.

Who is there right mind does not see serious flaws in this system??

De-isolating is just the same, all it requires is a phone call to the ECR from….well anyone to de-isoltes the equipment, not the person who has performed the work and again its by a phone or radio call to me or my Third to do the de-isolation. Keep in mind that there has now most likely been a watch change to add even further confuse things. So someone completely different will now do the de-isolation. (you can imagine the problem this causes and you would be correct) Also remember, once something has been de-isolated the PMS (power management system) computer controls all stop/starting functions, not the watchkeeper.

I Unfortunately, had my Third mistakenly, de-isolate the wrong Main Engine once, while people were still working on it!!!! My First and Staff Chief were pretty upset and it resulted in the Third been breathalysed!!! (Talk about looking for a problem in the wrong area)

Permit to work you ask, what a joke, that is simply for hot work and tank entry.

The truly sad thing is, it will not be the British Officer whom will be killed or seriously injured but one the hard working, dedicated Filipino Motormen who are too nervous to speak up.

I have, "it is the accepted way, always has been and always will"… (was the reply I got)


Stay safe out there!!

I work for a major cruise line as well and its hard to believe the described "isolation" process could be accepted. On the other hand, I would bet that there is a mechanism inside the company to raise the issue in a form of "Non-Compliance" or comment back to the QA process.

With regards to the reply: "it is the accepted way, always has been and always will"...this is unacceptable. I hope it was not the end of it.

[dwong]

Is there any Safety Officer? How about the SMS audit or company internal audits? The auditors should notice the non-compliance.